Parents speak at a rezoning meeting last week.
The Department of Education hasn’t finished drafting a new school rezoning plan for the Upper West Side, so the Community Education Council decided not to hold a hearing this Saturday, Oct. 29. The CEC sent out the following notice:
“The scheduled meetings of Tues., Nov. 1st and Thurs. Nov. 3rd are still on the calendar though the timeline will likely shift in order to ensure that the next meeting includes the DOE presentation of a DRAFT Rezoning Proposal. We will update the community as soon as possible.”
of course they haven’t. They are trying to figure out how to get out the mess the CEC has created.
Batten down the hatches. Here comes today’s wave of hogwash from the paranoid parents and co-op owners of the UWS. We are in this situation not because of the CEC, DeBlasio or the DOE. We are here because all of the Mayors before him post-1976 did a good job to make the UWS a better place to raise a family and given the current enrollment, it looks like he is doing an OK job himself. Let’s look at the reality. The DOE and the BOE before them just didn’t plan. A couple of reasons – Planning is hard work and getting a bunch of Upper West Siders to agree is pretty tough and sometimes just not worth the effort. Read the Politico article on that subject. Secondly, it is unbearably expensive to live here and it makes it unbearably expensive to build here, including schools. Riverside South had plans built into it for a school, but DOE passed on the chance and when the opportunity came around again in Riverside Center, we succeeded in getting our first new building since the 1960’s. It is still really expensive and 97% of the people who live in the City would rather not pay for our new school.Lastly, we just can’t get out act as a community together because we probably aren’t one because we aren’t acting like one. The re-zoning has been house to house fighting, year after year and this goes back years. The focus isn’t on how we move forward but about one school was this year or last or ten or twenty years ago. By the time this goes into effect, even in the first year, half of those elementary school kids are already in middle school. Does anyone remember how hard it was to get a new middle school going a couple of years ago? Our three year olds are going to become five and ten soon enough and we missed a whole generation of middle schoolers while some people quibbled about Roberts Rules of Orders. Sooner or later, and sooner if I am right, if we throw FOILs at each other, the DOE will give us a plan that in no way is ours because there is a new building coming our way next fall and parents who have one year olds now don’t care who went there five years ago.
Yes, we are not acting like a community. We should be able to disagree on which buildings get rezoned without having it descend into neighbors ostracizing each other.
It was unnecessarily hard to start a new middle school (btw, one of the major arguments against starting one was that it would perpetuate segregated middle schools) when it should have been easy.
Our next battle should be “reclaiming” MLK Jr. and Brandeis high schools as District 3-preference and academically competitive high schools. District 2 has created scores of D2-preference high college admissions rates school and we have ZERO.
District 3 is transitioning slowly and painfully from a district where the majority of local children have not attended D3 schools to one where a majority of schools are attended by D3 children.
You and I don’t always agree on the solutions, but we are very similar in that we think it is important to be involved in the process whenever possible, and be respectful and professional in making a point. Agreed on the H.S. issue.
Thank you Michael for sharing the Politico article with us. I have always wanted to understand our neighborhood’s history in these matters.
Thanks everyone on this thread and a few others as part of this posting for engaging in a reasoned and rational discussion. You really made my day and I mean it. My own personal position has developed over time, especially when I had a better understanding of what the post-rezoning world should look like. I think that this is the vision that DOE, CEC and each of the impacted schools (BTW, these run up to the low 100’s, not just 191, 199 and 452 on one issue and several upper district schools on another issue) needs to elaborate in detail on the schools as they will be, year by year and six years out so that incoming parents and grandfathered parents all understand.
The politico article from yesterday is one of the best articles I have ever read on 199.
It traces the history of the relationship between P.S. 199 and 191. P.S. 199 was completed in 1963 and within a year of its opening, the DOE tried to institute a pairing system to avoid school segregation.
A group of four parents (two of which were from Lincoln Towers) sued the city to stop the pairing, but their suit was rejected by a judge and the pairings began in 1964 (until the 1980s).
It is so sad to see the similarities between then and now. In 1964 Barry Goldwater was running for president, and today we have Donald Trump. As reported in the article P.S. 199 was 62% White at its opening and it is 63% White today. P.S. 191 was 93% Black and Latino at the time, and it is 80% today.
There is, however, a VERY HUGE difference now. When you read the article, you can see that back then just over half the neighborhood kids came from Lincoln Towers and other middle class buildings and just under half of the neighborhood was the NYCHA houses.
Since this time, West End Avenue and Riverside Boulevard has been filled with luxury towers and the percentage of low income children in our neighborhood is minuscule. The houses contribute just over 30 kids per grade, and this will be shared among 3 schools.
Are we really no better than we were in 1964? If we cannot make this possible in 2016 in one of the richest, most liberal enclaves in America – where and when will it ever be possible?
Shame on us if we turn our backs on this amazing opportunity because we refuse to (in a school with 4 classes per grade) integrate with just over a dozen NYCHA children.
If we cannot do this, we are no better than the Trump loving, backwards thinking hicks and suburbanites that we look down on.
https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/10/upper-west-side-school-integration-fight-goes-back-50-years-106679
It is a gross misrepresentation to compare the PS199 situation in the 60’s to the situation today. In the current proposal, the highest percentage of NYCHA children are actually being proposed to go to PS199, so those who are asking to remain in ps199 are asking to remain in the school that will ultimately be the most diverse
The poster known as 22 High Rises speaks for a large part of many of us. Will a few kids from the PJs really bring down the entire Lincoln Square neighborhood? All three elementary schools?
I don’t think so!
Interestingly, that Politico writer (who is an NYC education reporter) is an Upper West Side native and a graduate of St Ann’s.
I agree that the article is well-written but it doesn’t sit well with me when she portrays parents who are scrapping to get into a decent public school as roadblocks to integration.
22: Maybe we, as a community, are no better than the 60s. The simplest thing for the DOE to propose would have been to create a new school in the Riverside building, and zoned only the new/er construction west side of West End to the river for the school from, say 66th to 60th. Likelihood of that school having high test scores in the future – 100%. The likelihood of families further north protesting a rezoning to that school – 0.
But this mayor was elected on the basis of integration and inclusivity, and so we have what we have now. Add to that, the CEC past and present, have leaned liberal and definitely pro-integration.
As a community, we are sending mixed messages. We have voted Democrat for the most part, and have elected (through our choice of PTA officers) the CEC. I feel that if we want different things to happen, then maybe we should be signalling these things with our votes.
We’re seeing a reawakening of the public in terms of awareness of all the barriers that prevent people from attaining escape velocity and reaching the middle class. The logical result will be a push for more equitable access to opportunity. As I see it, who we elect as mayor is just one moving piece in a larger current.
Please do not insult the memory of Barry Goldwater by matching it with that lunatic Trump.
They were similar in that they both drove/drive Republicans to vote Democrat.
As you write, the situation is altogether worse today. Goldwater was very very conservative, but Trump is a narcissistic lunatic.
Parents’ reactions to the school proposal is sadly also more extreme today than it was in 1964. Same “separate but equal” rhetoric and litigious attitude – but with low economic status numbers so small (as explained above) that the reaction is baffling.
When we play into the fear/anxiety, entitlement and narcissism that Trumpism expounds today – our personal character, community, and our democracy erodes.
Another really important statistic – 199 has over 900 k-5 kids. 191 has only 250 k-5 kids (if you take out pre-k and the middle).
Just over 30 of the 42 kids per grade at 191 are from NYCHA, and the majority of them are being rezoned out of 191 to the Amsterdam facility and 199 (save temporary grandfathering).
22 high rises,
Only the kindergartners from 191 are being distributed. Not K-5 kids. 191 will be the same children as they are now in grades 1-8. Don’t spread misinformation.
You are from one of the city boards – either CEC or CB7 sent here to push the case.
People tend to think of the NYCHA houses as a huge complex like Lincoln Towers. However, the housing is a lot smaller than you would think. Along Amsterdam you have three 13 story buildings that have a very large footprint. Just behind them you have one medium sized building and then 9 tiny buildings with very small footprints (and only 7 stories tall).
Citizen
P.S. 191, which has 10 grades from pre-k to 8. Its enrollment numbers have been declining. The document below shows exactly how many kids were in each grade in 2014-2015 and the two years prior. It also demonstrates that 77% of the students are low-income (they are not all from NYCHA). From 2012 to 2014 the school went from 551 children to 490 kids. By 2016, the numbers have fallen even further.
You can see that the greatest losses were in the middle school, which went from 221 kids in 2013 to 161 kids in 2015 (a loss of 20 kids per grade). The elementary grades lost nearly 3 kids per grade during that time.
https://schools.nyc.gov/schoolportals/03/M191/default.htm
I’d be happy to answer any other questions about numbers.
Is that really true? I hadn’t heard these numbers before
I feel that for some time now, those of us who are not involved with schools have no business reading West Side Rag. Important issue for many but narrowing the scope of the reporting is narrowing the readership. Would not want that to happen.
Not read nor participate in the entire West Side Rag site based upon parental status? That seems rather harsh.
How does that work anyway? Where do you draw the line? Those who are either too young or too old to reproduce? What age would that be then? For the record know of a least two UWS households that became parents well into their fifties.
Finally you do realize *all* New York State and city residents pay taxes that support public education. Access to quality primary and secondary education is one of the major determining factors in many areas including property values. It is part and parcel of what makes a community desirable regardless.
sounds to me like the CEC cancelled this meeting because they don’t want to have to face the music and answer questions about how they have hijacked the process. Without a DOE plan on the table all eyes (and public comment) will be directed at them!
And the process drags on and on and on…
I can’t believe they really plan to implement this for 2017-2018 when there is so much up in the air going into November. I know several families who have leases ending and would like to move but can’t because they have no idea what school zone they might be moving into. I believe you have to be living in a location by January to apply as in-zone – this does not leave a lot of time.
Plus principals and staff might need to be hired, bussing might need to be organized, etc. But they want to just jam a half-baked idea down our throats. Brilliant!
Rezoning at the last minute helps the effort. We keep hearing about how families zoned for 191 will move rather than send their child. It just won’t be that easy for everyone to move or find another option in time. Some families will think “it’s only kindergarten, we’ll do this year and find a new option for 1st grade”. They’ll end up being pleasantly surprised by the new building and the influx of people from the new developments as well as people like themselves. They’ll stay for 1st grade and beyond and the school will thrive.
This has got to be a joke. These are rich families who can afford to live in luxury Trump buildings. 2 bedroom apartments in Lincoln Towers are well over $1M. These families certainly won’t be constrained by a DOE rezoning assignment.
When these parents say that they won’t enroll their kids in 191, they mean it. They aren’t protesting just for fun. You couldn’t even PAY THEM to enroll their kids in 191.
Stop discrediting the Kindergarten before it has even opened. Did you even read the proposal? 69% of the kindergarten is going to be from rezoned 199 blocks.
The zone is composed of 17 luxury high rises along WEA and RSB plus 1/3 of he Amsterdam Houses. After grandfathering – 1/3 is about a dozen kids out of 100. When Riverside Center is completed, it will be 22 high rises.
I am a Lincoln Tower apartment in a 2 bedroom and I absolutely cannot pay for private school after paying for my mortgage. My family is too old to be affected, but I would absolutely have supported 191 under these new conditions.
The NY Times had a great article yesterday that all of you neurotic UWS parents should seriously consider reading. The Epidemic of Worry (with the tagline – The thing we have to fear is anxiety itself).
Anxiety is the enemy here. Wake up and see what an amazing opportunity we have before us. Go tour the amazing pre-k at 191 and get a free education next year in the gorgeous new building. Scores of P.S. 199 parents have sent their kids to the fully integrated pre-k there and loved it (including one of the PTA Presidents of 199). A critical mass of parents will stay and love it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/25/opinion/the-epidemic-of-worry.html
Thanks 22. I’ve enjoyed yours as well. You did catch an error of mine (don’t know if you saw my 2nd post correcting myself)
At the end of the day, becoming a new school parent is full of uncertainty. I wasn’t sure how to respond to UWS Mom’s post thoughtfully. Despite PTAs, the reality is that most schooling is out of your hands. You’re trusting someone with your child. Children spend most of their day in the classroom, with lunch/recesses grouped by age (so K is not with the older elementary kids or middle schoolers). But I’m not trained in school administration. I don’t know what, if anything, about a school needs fixing. The glass may be half empty, and the PTA won’t be able to afford a greenhouse. Or the glass may be half full, and this is your family’s chance to interact with kids of a different economic stratum and race. Maybe for some child, this will become a great middle school, high school, or even Harvard application essay. In any case, I do understand the trepidation of parents- for sure, this is a road less traveled by.
Soapbox,
I appreciate your thoughtful posts. I understand why 452 parents are upset by the move. However, I do not understand why you say that 452 parents are fearful of P.S. 191’s reputation and brand.
452 is not being rezoned to the same building as the P.S. 191 students. The incoming kindergarten siblings of P.S. 452 students will primarily be going to school with the 10 rezoned 199 blocks and the five blocks between Broadway and Central Park West (60th to 65th) that had been in P.S. 191’s zone.
The 1/3 portion of the NYCHA buildings is only a very small portion of this zone. Currently, just over 30 kids per year from the entire complex enter P.S. 191. In the next few years, some of the NYCHA kids who are rezoned to 452 will be going to P.S. 191 because of grandfathering.
That’s about a dozen kids for each P.S. 452 grade – after grandfathering. We are talking 1 to 3 kids per class, depending on the grandfathering situation.
Anon,
Thank you for pointing out my mistake. M191 is the building, and not the school.
I am generally in favor of the plan regarding the schools in the lower part of the district – I am much more concerned about moving 452 (my child goes to none of these schools). That being said, I somewhat understand the apprehension of parents whose kids will be rezoned to be kindergarteners at a school where the rest of the grades are legacy 191.
Yes, the K class will be much more socioeconomically diverse than 191, with plenty of UMC kids (assuming they choose to actually go to the school, which is a big question). That being said, it takes more than one grade to make a school successful.
Like it or not, part of what makes the good schools in NYC good is parent involvement, both financially and with their time. Parents pay for extras like assistant teachers and the arts, they run the PTA, they help teachers out with copying, etc. It will take a few years until this really starts happening at this school. If it is just the K parents fundraising for these things, all of the benefits are not only going to go to the K students – they will be diluted across the whole school.
So if my child was supposed to be going to 199, where parental involvement is the norm, and is suddenly being shifted to a school without this, I would not be thrilled. Yes, every child deserves all of these things, but that just isn’t how things work right now, and you have to look out for number one, particularly in a big, bureaucratic school system such as this.
@SoapboxO,
The kids who start K in Sept at 191 will be mostly be UMC kids. The number of kids from Amsterdam Houses zoned for that school will be a small percent. If your child is in K and none of the 4th graders pass their state tests, how does that effect you? Your child will be in a class full of children with parents like you. Those kids will mostly pass their 4th grade state tests. I really don’t see why this is so awful. Can you explain?
Ok, I should have said “fix”. The message to these families is “Here is a failing school, go FIX it for us.”
That means, if there are problems in the upper grades, those are problems that MY SCHOOL needs to deal with. It is extra time and money and other resources that MY SCHOOL has to devote to fix those problems. The school administration has to divert its attention to matters like disciplinary issues instead of building a new greenhouse. Families like mine have to contribute a lot more time and money and other resources because we’d have to cover the shortfall in the other grades.
And if the CEC and folks like you just skirt around this issue, and instead only talk about the praises of the new zoning demographics for the Kindergarten class, then it’s enough for me to just run away. Maybe in a less affluent area, parents are stuck and so they make the best of the situation. And 20 years ago, it wasn’t very simple to just pick up and leave. But in today’s age, especially with the internet, it is so easy for families to research and shuffle out to zones where the schools are not burdened with all that baggage.
UWS Mom- what does “go turn it around for us” even mean? The teachers will help your kids learn and grow in your absence. Not sure what you think the parents are supposedly doing to “turn it around”
@SoapboxO – Because the parents enroll their kids in a SCHOOL, not a standalone grade!
If the DOE was opening a completely new school with the new 191 zoning, then I believe that many families would enroll. It is the vision that 22 High Rises has been praising. But that is not what is happening. The message to these families is “Here is a failing school, go turn it around for us.” Sorry, but that sounds like too much baggage involved for families like mine.
Sorry to be so negative, but until we deal with this issue head on, these families will leave. We are dealing with very resourceful parents who live in a very resourceful era.
@soapbox – I agree with your updated statement. I also agree that parents fighting the move to the Riverside Center School (the “old” 191) will likely be surprised over time how the school performs. Having said that, I can understand them having some trepidation. But, zoning can and does occur and all residents have to be prepared for it (particularly on the UWS where these problems have been brewing for some time).
Do I think the CEC has a good heart and wants to see the right thing done. Of course I do. But (and maybe this is where we will agree to disagree) this process has been entirely flawed and I no longer have any confidence that this is anything but a political and lobbying effort to get something done.
Anon- I was mistaken. Existing PS452 parents are being transplanted to the M191 building (so no integration with legacy PS191 students who move to the Riverside Center). New kindergartners at all the schools will have integration according to the new demographic mix. So the main complaint is 1) PS452’s new location and 2) fear of PS191’s reputation and brand. However, what a parent might not realize is that the brand and test scores are tied to demographics, and the kindergartners will have the new demographic balance. UMC children have UMC test scores. Test scores of the new kindergartners will be much higher once they reach testing age. The new PS191 actually gets the fewest NYCHA students (fewer than PS199!). If there is a CEC conspiracy, it’s to create a successful new PS191.
Volkswagen’s brand is terribly damaged now, but any 2017 model is not going to have the emissions cheat. Why would anyone buying a 2017 Volkswagen be deathly afraid of emissions cheating on older models? Same goes for PS191, no new kindergarten parent is getting the legacy PS191 demographics, the older grades will remain as they are, but what a new K parent is getting is the new demographics. You’d think a bunch of wealthy well-educated parents would peek beneath the hood and inspect the engine and not just buy the brand name.
22 high rises + 1/3 NYCHA = success – You are not correct about 1 important item. 69% of the formerly 199 zoned parents are not going to comprise the 191 zone that is moving into the new complex. That 69% number is 199 families that will be moving into the space on West 61st, which under the CEC proposal is going to be the relocated 452.
I do agree that people should give 191 (relocating to the new school building) a chance, they are really making some great strides.
I also think that I have some real doubts about moving 452. I am not convinced that overcrowding issues will happen again at 87, 9 and 199.
I truly hope the CEC/DOE offers 452 parents that don’t want to move an ability to attend their newly zoned school.
@SoapboxO,
The DOE’s rule is that once you start at a school you can continue through the terminating grade as long as you live anywhere in the 5 boroughs. Remember that a lot of kids in this city have unstable home lives. The rule exists to give kids stability of their families have to move often. The DOE can’t turn around and change a rule in effect for a million children to keep the peace with a few vocal UWS parents.
Is there any reason the legacy PS191 students aren’t going to be immediately parceled out into the 3 schools as well? I understand it might be disruptive for them, but why not integrate them too and not just starting in kindergarten? If they were divided out immediately, I suspect the existing PS452 parents wouldn’t be reacting as loudly, since the demographic change would be immediate.
Thanks Angeline for vouching for me here. I get it that it’s not all rainbows and unicorns here (my posts seem too positive). Leon, UWS Mom and Angeline all bring up some important points that need to be worked on. I also acknowledge that the first couple to few transition years will be more challenging than the ones after.
As Leon mentions, there will be people that will choose not to go to the school. Many many kids in our neighborhood already go to private school and that’s okay. It is also okay to say that you don’t think 191 is going to be a good fit for your kid(s) – and saying that doesn’t make you wrong, racist, classist, etc.
This proposal puts people in a position that requires families to think really hard about the situation. The problem is that the rhetoric here works against people being able to make rational, informed decisions:
1) extreme posts that give the impression that the situation is so terrible that nobody should ever want to go to the school (taking power away from others to make that choice for themselves) and
2) posts that suggest that the process is corrupt.
Double checked my post 🙂
I can vouch that 22 is not on the CEC 🙂 Maybe 22 will weigh in, but I feel that going to the meetings from the beginning (i.e. 3 or 4 years ago) really changes what you think when you have all the factors laid before you and not in a confrontational public forum format. It is unfortunate that the public hears about this only at the end, and it’s not clear why things are the way the are.
We have to acknowledge that families who can, will fight tooth and nail to send their children to their school of choice. Likely that school is not going to be one with poor test scores. Unless that school can differentiate itself in a meaningful way going forwards from its successful neighbor. To me, that would mean ditching the Bank street/Everyday math favored by the gened schools in the district and going with a different (perhaps more “traditional” school approach). These are definitely things that have been discussed but for whatever reason, dropped.
Could you please stop! We get your point – there are 22 luxury high rises and 1/3 of Amsterdam Houses will be added in and they will all join together and sing kumbaya. Repeating the same thing over and over and over again in extremely long posts, then half the time not editing your posts so adding additional posts to correct yourself, is not making your point any stronger. Nothing personal – I admire your passion – but it is too much.
And the bottom line is that though in theory you are likely correct, what matters most is that people are going to act in the best interest of their children today, and many won’t send their children to the new school. And the CEC and DOE are likely not factoring this into their “models.”
22 High Rises – I have read your comments here and I admire your optimism and vision. You are right that under the new zoning plans, 191 has the POTENTIAL to be a terrific school.
But parents who will enroll their kids in Kindergarten next fall want schools that will benefit their own kids, not just the kids who go there in the future. You may think it is short-sighted thinking, but of course parents are going to want what is best for their own kids.
I’ve said it before, the DOE should phase out 191 (not just move and rename it). Families in the newly created zone would pioneer a completely new school in the Riverside Center building (co-located with 191 being phased out).
What is the difference? Families will truly be given the opportunity to build a new school, rather than tasked with trying to fix all the problems of a failing one. They won’t be burdened with failing test scores, disciplinary issues, inadequate fundraising, etc. – instead they can concentrate their efforts on making the potential a reality.
Another note – In addition to the 69% I mentioned above (the former 199 blocks) – you have a huge part of the zone that is RSB and WEA from 59th to 66th. 90% (or less) of the zone is 1/3 of the Amsterdam Houses.
We can do this!
The postponement could simply be the result of realizing that the UWS might not be the best community in which to hold a meeting on a Saturday.
Brenda – They’ve had other CEC meetings on Saturdays….don’t think that’s the reason
I was hoping it was. There are a lot of observant people in my neck of the UWS. I’d feel better if official meetings took those kinds of things into account.
I don’t think many observant people send their kids to public school.
Is this a veiled anti-Semitic comment, or that UWS folks leave town on weekends, or that UWS people are too busy on weekends to attend a meeting?
Why is the DOE allowing themselves to be bullied by the CEC? No leadership?
The CEC gets the final vote on zoning changes that the DOE submits. There is no point in submitting a plan that the CEC will vote down.
I think it’s high time for the CEC to end the sham process of soliciting “public comment.”
I know the group of parents at PS 452 that has been conspiring with the CEC to promote the move. They are only it in to “win” a victory against the other parents, and secure better spots for their children for middle school. Disgusting behavior by all!
CEC is now rallying support from schools NOT impacted by their proposal (eg, PS 166, where Kim Watson’s kid goes to). If you have friends or kids in District 3, especially if they go to schools that are severely and unjustly impacted by the CEC’s plan, please speak up to your PTA! What the CEC is doing is unethical and corrupt!
Scenario C, please.
I was forwarded an email today from the CEC to a friend of mine at PS 87. It is very concerning as to what they are doing. The DOE MUST step in and take control of the process. This continues to make the DOE look incompetent. This mayor can’t get anything right. The DOE is making him yet again look like a total clown.
Mark,
You really need to be specific if you are going to make an accusation like that.
Why would the PS 87 community want to re site ps 452? Seems to me they would be the losers in that deal.
Speaking of Joe, I also don’t understand why Joe seems intent on destroying 452. He fought for the school. I attended a PTA meeting where he came and spoke with pride about its success. Why ruin it?
You may think their proposal is inappropriate for your situation, but that doesn’t mean that their actions have been.
When parents act in crazy ways – threatening to sue – calling people corrupt – it is easy for the DOE / CEC to discount them as lunatics. If you want to be taken seriously, focus on the merits of your argument without personally attacking elected representatives (and in some other posts) members of specific school communities (low-income children, teachers, other parents).
Maybe Joe is busy.
Busy hiding under his desk!
Folks – I think everyone should take a step back and realize, unfortunately, that this is now fait accompli. The CEC has gotten what it wants and all costs.
Rezoning should be a process determined by parents. All of this public comment at meetings has been nonsense. There has been no real informed discussion at all. Instead of truly informed discussion this has devolved into a political and lobbying process. We can all look on television and see how awful the national political process but I am saddened to know that I don’t have to look past my backyard to see the same.
Everyone involved in this process should be ashamed and I don’t know how any parents can be happy about this.
Rezoning should not be determined by the parents. They all want the best school for their children. That is understandable but can’t happen. Somebody has to be zoned for other schools. We all have an interest in every American child getting a good education. People who do not have kids in these schools can make informed decisions without their emotions playing a role.
I am in favor of efforts to integrate as a secondary benefit of efforts to manage school enrollment – the primary goal is to make sure schools aren’t overcrowded and new facilities are being used. If diversity can be achieved, great, but students shouldn’t be shipped all over the UWS to accomplish this.
I am curious if there has been any precedent set on the UES for these rezoning efforts. For example, it looks like PS6 is about 75% white and 11% Asian. Have they tried to change this and make it more diverse? Successfully? Unsuccessfully?
One other question – how much of the “violence” at PS 191 that is scaring off many families was committed by middle school students? Would stripping out 6-8 from the school make people happier?
Not that it can be changed now, but it is fascinating to me that if there wasn’t a pocket of NYCHA housing in the midst of the UWS, the tone of this discussion would be completely different. Kind of like how there are no calls to integrate the schools in Scarsdale or Bronxville because there is no one to integrate them with. I personally like some diversity in my life, but it is all a matter of perspective.
This doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. In various suburbs, they don’t always have K-5 in one building. Why not combine 191 & 199 so that all students in grades K-2 go to one building, then grades 3-5 go to the other? The common spaces could be made age specific & there’s total integration. Is there a rule that “elementary schools” have to be K-5 in one building? Why not have a great library for 3 grades in each school instead of the redundancy there is now for 6 grades? Why not have a playground for 5-7 year olds and another for 8-10 y/os? Etc. We can make both schools even better.
Last meeting the President of the CEC was a no show, now they just decide to cancel the next meeting altogether. WTF?
The President of the CEC and head of zoning committee Kim watkins are having private meetings with individual PTAs at various upper west side schools (87, 166) to rally for support of their plan.
Kim’s child is in a majority-white gifted and talented class. Joe’s child is in a majority white PS199 class. How about we see a plan that has them commuting their kids to PS 191 (or returning to PS 191, in Kim’s case), and/or the re-sited PS 452?
Then, I’ll buy what they’re selling.
Please stop attacking Kim. Kim traveled further than any 452 parent will have to when she was a pioneer at P.S. 191. She lives further uptown than all of us and she fully understands what it is like to travel to an integrated school.
We all know parents who have forgone general education in even the best schools (P.S. 199, 87, 452, 9, etc.) to enter a public G&T program – and we haven’t looked down on them.
She has displayed more courage under pressure in her efforts at the CEC than any of us have in this situation. I don’t know many people who could do what she has done. I certainly cannot imagine doing it myself.
Anyone know what Kim and Joe said at the PS 87 PTA meeting this morning?
Why is 191 a failing school? Is it because of the student body? Because of their address? Because of their household income? Because their families can’t or don’t contribute the additional resources needed to make the school great? If yes, then the CEC plan seems poised to make 191 a school that performs better by spreading that student body around and by bringing in parents with more income, more resources and more prestigious addresses. AKA a school that most people would want to send their kids to.
But what if the reason that 191 is a failing school is because the faculty and staff are ineffective? What if they’re not as good as teachers at 199 or 452 or 9? And how can you be sure?
Take race and home prices and community closeness out of the equation and ask yourself: if you had a child entering K in 2017, would you trust the DOE that the 191 teachers and staff are as good as any other and just need your kids and your resources to prove it? That your kids will excel in their new location? And if you don’t trust the DOE, is it because you’re a racist? Or greedy? Or because rolling the dice with you’re kids education is not a bet you’re willing to make?
Our five decade old policy of separate and unequal schooling in our Lincoln Square community is what has failed P.S. 191. I personally know several of the P.S. 191 staff members and I am confident in their ability to successfully teach the children in the new 191 zone.
Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but have you heard about their amazing Pre-k program? It is successful because it has full support from the entire community. Scores of P.S. 199 parents have sent their kids there and loved it (including one of P.S. 199’s PTA presidents). It is successful because it is not segregated.
Unfortunately, parents have historically attended the pre-k and then shifted to other public or private schools. This new situation (new school, new zone) should be enough for a critical mass to stay.
I am a former educator and I can assure you that teachers are prepared to teach children at multiple levels. It is no different than adjusting from being a first grade teacher to a second grade teacher, and so on.
The only thing we know for certain (absent recorded specific teacher failings) is correlation of demographics with test scores.
I think that the sex assault incidents derived from an employee of the after school program (large non-profit) and middle school students. Definitely worrisome, and the non-profit group was fired (they still run in other schools). As previously mentioned, PS199 has a for-profit afterschool closely linked to Ramapo. They provide trips to Ramapo on many school holidays. I think this could be a bigger problem that people realize – how to transition from a non-profit, providing free childcare to a for-profit program. Families have come to expect a variety of after school classes (albeit at a higher cost).
That’s an interesting point you make. No one has been able to articulate exactly what makes 191 deficient. Is it the administration? Teachers? Behavior problems in a small percentage of kids? Something more pervasive?
I do know that a number of the 191 admin and teachers have spent most or all of their careers in Title 1 schools. They are great, dedicated people and I admire that. However I don’t know how that style works when two thirds of the students are high achieving and affluent and a small percent are greatly disadvantaged.
If the entire administration of the current 191 along with all their teachers moves to the new building, I don’t think they’ll be prepared for a totally different group of kids, parents, PTA, expectations, etc. Some administrators and teachers are going to have to go elsewhere.
Perhaps “22 high rises + 1/3 NYCHA = success” can change his/her name to something shorter and sweeter – just saying…
If that’s the worst thing you can say about my incessant posting, I think you are alright 🙂
Lincoln Towers is a community. All children living here should attend the same school which is on our grounds! To replace our children with children from an as yet unbuilt luxury oversized tower is an act of discrimination against the NHYC middle class. George Teebor 170 West End Avenue 26P
Stuyvesant town has a very similar housing stock and historical demographic as Lincoln Towers. It has a vibrant community and shares its own parks – while existing across two school zones.
However, since Lincoln Towers transformed into a co-op and property values are sky high, none of the families who could afford the 1.2 million dollar minimum entrance fee could be considered middle class.
Your grounds? The DOE owns the school and the parks department owns the playground. Lincoln Towers doesn’t own it. It is a public school. We all own it. We all pay taxes for it.
The sense of entitlement being displayed in This fight is astounding.
Anon,
George Teebor isn’t saying LT legally owns 199. He’s saying the school, in spirit, belongs to LT.
Do you understand the difference?
I think that is incorrect as well. LT doesn’t own the school. I live a little further away and my building will be zoned out of 199. I don’t claim to own it. Public schools are owned by the public. George owns neither more not less than I do or than you do.
I bet the poster understands the technical difference. However, many people do believe in the idea that home owners (as opposed to renters) have “bought” into a school.
This mindset of course is problematic because equitable access to a public education is a right and not a commodity that goes to the highest bidder.
That’s why the CEC has equity in education as part of its mission statement. When they make recommendations, they are supposed to be looking towards the greater good (as opposed to special interests).
Schools are built to educate children, not to satisfy the needs of particular constituent groups.