About 50 people spoke at a meeting Monday night about whether to relocate and rezone Upper West Side elementary schools.
By Perri Kressel
A meeting Monday night about how to rezone Upper West Side schools was tense from the start, as parents faced off about whether to relocate PS 452, an elementary school on 77th street. Speakers were purposely set up on different sides of the room, with those opposed to the relocation on the left side, and those in favor of the move on the right.
Most parents from PS 452 were against the proposal, with one saying the school had become “the district sacrificial lamb.”
The meeting Monday night offered a chance for public comment on a new plan to rezone Upper West Side schools, which is still preliminary. We detailed it here, but the basic outline goes as follows:
- PS 191 on West 61st Street and Amsterdam Avenue would move to a new building on 61st and West End Avenue starting in 2018.
- PS 452 would move into the former PS 191 building so it could expand and have more space.
- And the former home of PS 452 could become a pre-K center or a middle school, perhaps.
- In addition to the relocations, the school district would undergo a substantial rezoning to deal with overcrowding and segregation.
Humera Ahmed, A PS 452 parent, spoke against the relocation plan. Ahmed, whose son attends afterschool at the Anderson school (in the same building as 452), likes the current location, as it is close to her house. “The location of our school of course matters to us. All current 452-zone parents live 12 to 17 blocks away from 191.”
Many speakers also addressed the absence of diversity in PS 452, with most students resembling PS 199’s predominantly middle class student body.
“With respect to diversity, re-citing 452 does not increase diversity as PS 87, or PS 199,” Humera said. “This is not a real solution to the diversity problem in the southern portion of district 3. Moving our school is an unfair burden forced upon 452 children and families. The majority of parents in our community do not support this proposal, and we actively take it off.”
This was followed by a very loud round of applause.
Some parents also said they felt blindsided by the proposal to move the school from its location to 61st street starting in 2018.
“I do acknowledge this potential proposal came with feelings of betrayal, distrust anger,” said Principal David Scott Parker at PS 452. “We also understand the importance of distance, and the way communities work really hard to build homes, and they want excellent schools for their kids. We also understand the difficulty of reshaping our mindset.”
Parker apologized for the lack of information given to parents about the possible relocation plan. Parker said he and the staff of PS 452 are in full support of the relocation.
A PS 452 teacher, Charlotte Arbilata, immediately followed Parker, stating that her main problems with the current PS 452 location is that the lunches are rushed and the bathrooms are poorly located, causing students to travel more than a flight of stairs just to use the bathroom. She also added, that recess is often rushed, and must be planned in advance as they share the facilities with two other schools. Arbilata stated, “PS 452 teachers believe that community is not geography but about bonds that we share and trust in our community.”
Several other PS 452 staff members also spoke in favor of the relocation. Bridget Littles, a PS 452 5th grade teacher, said she didn’t think it was appropriate to have pre-k and 5th grade students in the same school environment.
“We don’t think its fair for our kindergarten, 1st grade students to interact with these developing adolescents. If we had our own school, if we had our own bathroom in the earlier childhood classrooms, the teachers could monitor their students better.” Littles said.
One PS 452 parent was in favor of the move. “I strongly support the DOE proposal, in the interest of our teachers and administration to relocate our school. Having our own building will allow the school to expand and offer other enrichments that is now not possible. [If we don’t move] it means no art studio, no computer lab, no bio.”
Department of Education reps stressed that nothing had been decided.
“This is really the beginning of a conversation that we are working through to decide if we want to move forward,” said Sarah Turchin, director of planning at the Department of Education.
One parent asked Turchin what would happen to PS 452’s current space inside the O’Shea complex on 77th street if the school leaves. “It has not been determined what would be used in this space, but the option of a pre-k-center has been discussed, as there is a high need for pre-k in this district, specifically in this geographic area of the district,” Turchin said.
District 3 Superintendent Ilene Altschul added that over the next 5 years PS 452 has decided to expand their school into a three-section grade school from two sections. She said that the reason that why the Computer School and Anderson School, which are in the same building as PS 452, are not being considered for relocation are because the Computer school is too big for the PS 191 space, and the district really needs more elementary school seats in that area. Anderson is a gifted citywide program whose population is not growing, but in fact getting smaller.
The last paragraph and the D3 superintendent are completely incorrect. There are many elementary school vacancies in D3 in all schools north of 90th street. What D3 needs is more and real middle schools. Currently the vast majority of middle schools are in shared spaces, as if anything beyond grade 5 is a total afterthought to DOE. And the elementary kids constantly are told that they need to perform at peak at all times if they hope to get into a middle school. That is ridiculous pressure on 6-9 year olds and their bewildered and beleaguered families.
I am glad that this article has calmed down people’s postings from before about moving Anderson. The target calculation for the 191 facility is 591. Anderson has 558 kids.
There would literally be no more room for another school in the Amsterdam facility and this area would lose sorely needed elementary seats. P.S. 199 needs to rezone a significant portion of its population to that facility – with an Anderson move there, that would not be possible.
This is clearly an unfortunate situation for 452 parents who live in the P.S. 452 zone (about 170 kids). However, just under half of P.S. 452’s 322 kids do not even live in the P.S. 452 zone.
Some live in the 199 zone (did not get in), but most others get in from or move to less desirable neighborhoods further north. If those families wanted a “neighborhood school”, they should have gone to their more diverse neighborhood school.
452 has very little diversity. They can get it by taking in some of the Amsterdam houses. Also, the massive rezoning of 199 families to that facility will go a lot more smoothly if they are rezoned to 452. By temporarily inconveniencing a small number of zoned 452 parents, we can have a lasting effect on the diversity in the southern region so many people have been calling for. Finally the DOE is proposing a solution that actually could get buy in from 199 parents.
That said, I would hope that this shift would coincide with a major rezoning which would mean that future families in the 70s are not leapfrogging over 199 to the Amsterdam facility. That would make no sense.
https://www.nycsca.org/Community/CapitalPlanManagementReportsData/Enrollment/2014-2015BlueBook.pdf
https://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/03/M334/default.htm
First, Do you really think the PS 199 parents are going to buy into any re-zoning. I think you are crazy if you believe that. They will fight any rezoning, even if 452 has been relocated to the former 191 site.
Second, before you throw around statements like “452 has very little diversity”, you should really think twice. According to the DOE’s Demographic Snapshot of 2011-2015/2106 school years, PS 452 has a student population that is 8.3% black and 12.6% Hispanic and 12.6% qualify for free or reduced lunches or HRA benefits (I will concede that this number is low given the overall NYC population) while PS 199 has a student population that is 2.4% black and 12.6% Hispanic and 7% that qualify for free/reduced lunches. Last year, the DOE put forth the “idea” to rezone 199 and it didn’t even make it to the proposal stage because of vehement opposition.
Third, you are correct about moving Anderson school. Any parents who want to continue to harp on moving them are fighting a losing battle. But, to be clear, they are a “city-wide” school and not a zoned school, so they wouldn’t necessarily need to be moved to the 191 site.
Fourth, I don’t think it is accurate that nearly half of the 452 students live out of the zone. That may be true for the 4th and 5th grades (the original students that founded the school) but it is definitely not true of the K-2nd grade students.
Fifth, the DOE has dropped the ball here. There needs to be a comprehensive master plan (including rezoning) before you can consider moving schools. How can you evaluate moving a school until you know what the new zone lines look like. At a recent meeting, a PS 87 parent made an excellent point. PS 452 was primarily created to alleviate overcrowding at 199 and 87. If you now move 452 to the South, PS 87 will once again have long wait lists. To your last point, if the DOE rezones the West 70’s to PS 199 or PS 87, the children in that new zone are going to be going to schools that will inevitably have wait lists….
What I think needs to happen is that the old 191 needs to open as a new school. As you said, the district needs elementary school seats (also needs more and better middle schools, but that’s a topic for another day). Moving 452 DOES NOT create more seats in the southern part of the district all it does is create an offset of seats.
The DOE really needs to think long term for this district (look at the buildings going up) and so far, this plan seems incredibly short-sighted.
Anon,
Read the diversity map that the Westsiderag posted earlier and compare 452 to the rest of the district – then write back that you think 452 is diverse. 199 is 79% White and Asian and 452 is 75% White and Asian. Big difference.
https://www.westsiderag.com/2016/03/03/an-intriguing-uncomfortable-discussion-of-school-segregation-on-the-upper-west-side/160328-d3map
If you don’t believe me that just over half of 452 parents live in the zone, go to a meeting and ask Kim Watkins for the statistics the CEC has. She’ll confirm. The DOE is operating this time on numbers.
Anon,
Read my original statement again. I never compared 452 with 199 like you are doing. I said that 452 has little diversity not less diversity. But compare the numbers with the 16% White and Asian population at 191 and we can see that there is a real diversity problem here.
199 zoned families are not going to be happy about being rezoned to 452 at the Amsterdam facility, but they will largely accept being rezoned to 452 as they did before – remember that 452 was a zone created to take in rezoned families.
You are right about the responsibility should be shared – I think the rezoning should be done in such a way that lower income students in that region are zoned to both 452 in the Amsterdam facility and 191 in the new facility. Newly rezoned P.S. 199 families should be split between 452 and 191 too.
Since 199’s zone is being entirely reconsidered, perhaps it should take in some more of the houses too. Currently it only has the NYCHA extension. So some of the houses should go to 199, some to 452, and some to 199.
The nearly 170 children at 452 who aren’t from that zone can either travel or actually go to their local neighborhood school. People who avoid their zones can be a part of the solution (rather than part of the problem).
I do feel bad for the situation that about 170 current P.S. 452 students are in (who live within the zone). However, the DOE is likely thinking that this solution can help jump start lasting change in the lower end of our district. Kudos to the Principal for doing the difficult and unpopular task of standing up for systemic change!
Anonym – You are making my argument for me, because Asians are not the only minority. If you take your numbers, 21% of PS 199 is made up of other minority groups and PS 452 is made up of 25% other minority groups. So to use your words – “big difference”.
But, I also look at numbers and not just empty statements. If you look at the DOE’s demographic statistics for school year 2015-2016 you will find the following:
PS 199 – 14.4% Asian, 2.4% Black (and looking at the chart you circulated states 1%), 12.6% Hispanic and 7% that qualify for free/reduced price lunch or HRA benefits
PS 452 – 10.5% Asian, 8.3 Black, 12.6% Hispanic and 12.6% that qualify for free/reduced price lunch or HRA benefits
I don’t know how you can empirically state that 452 is worse from an integration standpoint that 199.
As I said in my posting, I clearly concede that these numbers are not good given the demographic breakdown of NYC, but why is acceptable for only 452 to have to solve this problem and not the remainder of the district?
To your second point, I never said I did not believe you that have the students live outside the zone. What I said was I want to know the breakdown of those out of zone families and what grades their students are in. It is very easy for someone to stand up and say that they support a cause when it has no impact or bearing on them personally.
lastly, what has happened to the concept of the neighborhood school? I grew up in Queens and went to a neighborhood school. What seems to me is that DOE has let a problem fester for so long that they now have to disrupt an entire neighborhood to fix their mess. They had a plan to rezone 191 and 199 to alleviate some issues, but we all know how that went.
The lower region needs elementary seats so that several blocks can be rezoned out of 199.
The teachers want to move 452 because “the bathrooms are poorly located, causing students to travel more than a flight of stairs just to use the bathroom. She also added, that recess is often rushed, and must be planned in advance as they share the facilities with two other schools.” And if it moves they might make the space a pre-k school? Even younger kids would have to travel downstairs to use the adult sized bathrooms. The pre-k crowd would also want jungle gym time that would need to be scheduled with the other schools in the building. These issues wouldn’t be solved at all just transferred to a different, younger group of kids.
If a school is going to be moved we need to think about what is best for the majority of kids going forward.
“Many speakers also addressed the absence of diversity in PS 452, with most students resembling PS 199’s predominantly middle class student body.
“With respect to diversity, re-citing 452 does not increase diversity as PS 87, or PS 199,” Humera said.”
That should reassure lots of teachers and parents.
Could someone please let us know how to run for the board that votes for this potential rezoning? I do not have a child at PS 452 so do not have nearly as much invested in this as many others do, but this is one of the most idiotic ideas I have ever seen. I had previously heard good things about the principal at PS 452 but he is not coming across well here.
The concept of the local, neighborhood elementary school should be what guides all decisions here. My child goes to a nearby school, then after school many days children from his class go to a nearby park to play, knowing they will likely find friends there, and that they can then quickly get home at the end of the day. This is what builds strong schools and community. Bonds among students and families are stronger if they live closer together, and parents are much more likely to be involved in the school if it is down the block (and parent involvement is one of the biggest factors in making the good schools good). I’m very sorry that there are other schools in our area that are not as strong but I do not think that destroying the good schools to slightly improve the weak ones makes any sense.
I understand that overcrowding is an issue that is non-negotiable but this can be dealt with by slightly changing boundaries, not moving hundreds of kids far away. No matter what happens, people will be unhappy, but this will make a lot fewer people unhappy.
I think that PS 191 would be considered a stellar school in most of the rest of New York City – it just happens to be adjacent to several of the best schools in NY. Perhaps the DOE should focus more of its time, effort and money on dealing with the much larger problems in the rest of NY and leave us alone.
Eddie – Would someone from 199 run for the CEC and oust lobbyist (and CEC President) Joe Fiordaliso already? Turns out that the winning bidder of the ECF’s project at Co-Op Tech (the school to be demolished) was the client of the lobbying firm (MBI Gluckshaw) where Fiordaliso was a partner.
Makes sense now why lobbyist Eric Shuffler and buddy lobbyist Joe Fiordaliso wanted 199 to take a wait and see approach to demolishing the school. It is as if they knew Fiordaliso’s client would win – glad MBI Gluckshaw’s client got the East Side consolation prize.
https://therealdeal.com/2016/04/27/avalonbay-city-partner-on-1100-unit-mixed-use-project-on-ues/
Search on 2013 and MBI Gluckshaw
https://wwwnet1.state.nj.us/lpd/elec/AGAA/lobby_reports.aspx
Capalino, who helped his client win the previous ECF project in 2011 explains how it works (lobbying to quell parental resistance)
https://www.capalino.com/world-wide-holdings-inc/
Capalino like MBI Gluckshaw was lobbying for Avalon Bay Communities at the time too.
These lobbyists are real stand up guys. Read about the deBlasio / Capalino investigation. Seems from the article that appointing lobbyists to boards is a common practice. Foolish UWS parents! After Fiordaliso was appointed (by Stringer) you elected this lobbyist to a second term.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/de-blasio-doled-appointments-spreadsheet-big-donors-article-1.2655041
PS 191 would not be considered a good school in any neighborhood. 10% of the 3-8th graders were proficient or better in Math, 12% in ELA. Here, click on the academics tab
https://insideschools.org/component/schools/school/134
“I think that PS 191 would be considered a stellar school in most of the rest of New York City – it just happens to be adjacent to several of the best schools in NY. Perhaps the DOE should focus more of its time, effort and money on dealing with the much larger problems in the rest of NY and leave us alone.”
It’s a dangerous school by DOE measures. I’m sure you’d like to see things left alone, but how about the children in these schools, don’t they deserve attention?
Eddie – Very well said. Thank you!
The DOE has done an incredibly poor job handling this entire process. How can the DOE expect parents, members of the CEC and members of the community to discuss moving a school without a comprehensive re-zoning plan to consider. In addition, some of their answers to questions have been so lacking, it is making parents feel like the DOE is not considering the bigger picture throughout the district. If you move 452 and put a Pre-K center in its space (don’t get me started on how laughable this idea is given what the 452 teachers and staff have already said) how will that help overcrowding of 87 and 9?
It’s completely irresponsible.
It’s unbelievable that anyone’s solution to a district-wide issue is to uproot a group of kids that have already been rezoned once (in an attempt to alleviate overcrowding at PS 87 and PS 199) and move them over a mile away where they have to walk through another zone and past another school building to get to their new location. There needs to be a master plan! Moving PS 452 is not the solution to the larger D3 issues.
Lets not forget the 191 kids. Regardless of what the zone is those kids almost all live in the Amsterdam Houses. Now we’ll have them all cross West End Ave twice a day. Hundreds of them. Nobody east of WEA attends 191. WEA is not safe not easy to cross for anyone let alone 5 year olds.
The DOE needs to go back to their original plan of creating a new school (PS342) in the current PS191 building. This is the plan that has been properly explored and analyzed and would create the much needed new elementary seats for D3.
Having Principal Parker volunteer to move PS452 there eliminates the need to hire new administration and staff (saving the DOE money) so it is a plan that they quickly jumped on board without considering that they are then moving elementary seats from one school to another and adding a couple hundred new seats as opposed to the original plan where 500+ new elementary seats were going to be added. Where did the need for 500+ new seats go?
Just to clarify, the plan was not to create a new school in the 191 building. There is new school space on West End Ave; that is where 342 was going.
A new school in the new Riverside complex was the original plan but in November of 2015 the CEC voted to move 191 to the new school complex and the new school 342 would go into the current 191 building. The CEC voted this but it still needs to be approve by the PEP but it is a done deal. This was to give 191 a chance to start fresh which it deserves
Correct. I attended the Zoning Committee and CEC 3 Meetings.
1) How does moving 191 to a new building, with the same exact students, teachers and administrators solve any of the current 191 problems? The 191 building is just fine as it is. No one has suggested it isn’t. So how will moving the building help if the building isn’t the problem?
2) How does this solve overcrowding at ps 199?
3) How can you use 452 as a pre-school if the facilities (bathroom/ playground) are unfit for elementary students?
4) what’s the plan for building more middle schools in the district?
Please, can someone in authority suggest a realistic, comprehensive plan?! Doing things this way is not just silly, it can cause lasting damage
“The 191 building is just fine as it is. No one has suggested it isn’t.”
The DOE has determined it persistently dangerous. The NYT has determined it segregated. Inside Schools has rated it as poor performing. Only Deniars could ignore that. Nice try though.
Your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking. What Citizen is saying is that the physical building is fine, it is the school within the building that has problems, and moving it to a different physical building is highly unlikely to solve those problems.
Eddie, try not insulting my reading comprehension (if you can control yourself). The fresh start at a new school will both motivate the current stakeholders and attract a new population. That would help to end this segregation.
But, of course, the interest is in “2) How does this solve overcrowding at ps 199?”
I believe Citizen is talking about the physical structure of the building and questioning whether moving the student body to another physical space would solve the issues facing PS191. The DOE has not determined that the building itself is dangerous. But I think you know this.
Adam,
No I am not doing any trick here(“The DOE has not determined that the building itself is dangerous. But I think you know this.”).
Yes, the physicalbuilding is not dangerous. I’ll repeat: the *school* has been determined dangerous by the DOE. It is segregated. The scores are low. If it moved to a brand new building these problems could be ameiorated. But so many just don’t care. What they do care about is overcrowding at 199. Sad day for our community.
I attended the public meeting on June 15th at the O’Shea school. I am a grandmother,former elentary school teacher and resident of the UWS. My grandchildren do not attend the P452 school. I have been following the issues and conclude that the D.O.E. has failed to plan ahead concerning the district’s increased population over the years in the southern end and a lack of integration in that area as well. So now we have a crisis. Concerning P452’s placement,the D.O.E./ dist.3 will make their final decisions following a series of public meeting held due to procedural rules. I realize that P452 is the school mostly affected here. Although,the Principal,S. Walker spoke compassionately his job nor his teachers jobs are in jeopardy. He gains a more appropriate physical building with opportunities to grow the population. Unfortunately,P191 has been a failing and violent school for a long time. There is little diversity in the school population. In prior years there were pre k classes, but upon completion the parents chose other schools for kindergarten. Also,.a middle school was hosed on the upper floors which contributed to the schools roots of violence. P 199 ,K_ 8 has been overcrowded for a long time. Playing musical chairs is absurd. Furthermore,the O’Shea complex was designed to be a middle school. Now it also houses the Anderson School,a K through eight gifted and talented city wide school with some of district 3’s students attending the school. It was previously housed at P 83. The population of Anderson has decreased. Their early grades could attend an annex in an elementary school which would be more suited for younger children. There is talk about what to do with the space if P452 vacates. One suggestion was to have a pre k center at O’Shea. It is illogical to house them there if the building was designed for older students. A better solution would be removal of 5th grade from P87,and feeder schools,and put more pre k’s in the elementary schools.
Thanks for the update.
Anyone here home-school? Just curious.
I am thinking long and hard about it after seeing what these clowns at the DOE are proposing. Their relocation plan seems asinine!