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ROSENTHAL CONSIDERING TRAFFIC SYSTEM THAT STOPS CARS ALL FOUR WAYS FOR PEDESTRIANS

May 3, 2016 | 9:27 AM - Updated on June 5, 2022 | 11:33 PM
in NEWS, POLITICS
37

pedestrian5
Crossing the street can be treacherous at some Upper West Side intersections.

Upper West Side council member Helen Rosenthal wants to study the idea of stopping traffic in all four directions at some intersections to allow pedestrians to cross without any cars moving. Rosenthal is set to introduce a bill that would ask the Department of Transportation to study that idea at the city’s most dangerous intersections, according to the Daily News. Councilman Ydanis Rodriguez is also reportedly working on legislation.

Four-way stops, known as “Barnes Dances,” are appropriate now because “we have a shift towards pedestrians or mass transit or biking — getting people out of cars,” Rosenthal said.

It’s not clear what intersections could be targeted. On the Upper West Side, the community board, the police department and the Department of Transportation have identified different intersections as being particularly dangerous — sometimes it depends on the time frame they are using to track crashes.  Among the intersections that do receive a heavy volume of traffic and have been the site of several crashes are 96th street and Broadway and 72nd and Broadway.

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Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Great idea! 96th and Broadway should be a prime contender. Actually, the *entire* 96th/97th street corridors, come to think of it.

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Aaron M. Renn
Aaron M. Renn
9 years ago

This is a very bad idea. In one place it has already been implemented – 66th and Columbus – the change dramatically reduced the amount of time allocated to pedestrian crossings. A clear step backward for pedestrians designed to make it easier for cars to turn.

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Howard Freeman
Howard Freeman
9 years ago
Reply to  Aaron M. Renn

Aaron, hey friend.

We also have a four-way stop on Amsterdam at 81st Street (80th?) and it seems to work very well.

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Seth
Seth
9 years ago
Reply to  Howard Freeman

This is because 81st and Amsterdam only has cars initiating from one direction (lol). They start heading north along Amsterdam, and then choose to continue north, turn east, or turn west. It is necessary for the cars to stop altogether so that all pedestrians can cross.

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Shoym
Shoym
9 years ago
Reply to  Aaron M. Renn

Sorry Aaron, but you are wrong. I walk that intersection to and from work daily, and the new setup is MUCH better and safer. Knowing that I won’t have to dodge a vehicle going any direction is a huge relief.

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stu
stu
9 years ago
Reply to  Shoym

Depends which way you are walking. If crossing from west side of broadway, by lincoln center southbound 1-train exit, to the east side, it has become terrible. The lights are timed against pedestrians, forcing you to wait an extra light cycle.

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Zulu
Zulu
9 years ago

That’s a step in the right direction.

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Noreaster
Noreaster
9 years ago
Reply to  Zulu

I see what you did there, Zulu.

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dannyboy
dannyboy
9 years ago

I crossed 96th Street and Broadway this morning. That intersection, as currently engineered, is extremely dangerous.

However, each of the prior improvements implemented have been mere “tweaks”, and I expect this is another patch that masks the inherent problem.

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Bruce Bernstein
Bruce Bernstein
9 years ago
Reply to  dannyboy

I think 96th and Bway is a YUUUGE improvement over where it was. for example, the crosswalks on the “islands” and the extra protected pedestrian areas.

let’s give some credit where credit is due… 🙂

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Jerry
Jerry
9 years ago

If the bike-riding community does not start adhering to traffic laws by stopping on red (and if the bike-riding food delivery people do not comply with the law including one way streets), then the danger and mess will continue. When cars stop, the bikers continue along on bike lanes even when pedestrians are crossing. This happens all the time on CPW, where parked cars obscure the view that pedestrians have of the bike lane. Lousy planning, non-existent enforcement, and politicians who are afraid of offending the bike community. How about if our council member has the existing law enforced for a change?

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the_the
the_the
9 years ago
Reply to  Jerry

I agree, they should get rid of the parking lanes on CPW.

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josh
josh
9 years ago
Reply to  the_the

What they should do is make it a protected two-way bike lane like they have on Prospect Park West (yes, of course, NIMBY concerns…)

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Stuart
Stuart
9 years ago
Reply to  josh

So when you get rid of the parking lanes on CPW, some building owner will tear down a residential bldg to create a high rise with a parking garage? Please look at what happened on W 77 between Amstedam and Broadway – 2 competing buildings are being constructed on both sides of the street at the same time. No thanks

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Bill
Bill
9 years ago
Reply to  Stuart

First, you can’t just “build a building with a garage.” You need to get permission and it almost impossible to do that.

Second, most buildings on CPW are land-marked, so you cant just tear them down and start over.

Finally, on West 77th, the two building aren’t competing. They are being built by the same developer and they are replacing garages, so they already have curb cuts and the right to build a garage in their buildings.

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Michael
Michael
9 years ago

While you’re at it, how about an effort to enforce traffic regulations for all the new bike traffic you’re shifting focus toward? I have nothing against getting people out of cars, but the bicyclists that are replacing some of that clutter have total disregard for street lights, signs, flows of traffic, and basic laws. Where we used to teach our kids to look both ways when crossing, we now teach they must look three or four times – once each way and once again – often in the direction that traffic of any sort was never intended to flow. As ubiquitous as CitiBike has become, any effort to educate and encourage bike safety has been invisible, including advising riders that biking on sidewalks is illegal.

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eg
eg
9 years ago
Reply to  Michael

Yes! I just sent a message to DOT and CitiBike about a campaign to educate cyclists that wearing headphones in both ears is not only dangerous but ILLEGAL!

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Milton
Milton
9 years ago

This is a good idea as long as the rules are enforced for pedestrians. Many of the accidents occurring at these intersections are caused by jaywalkers running into vehicles that are obeying the traffic signals!

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nycissues.org
nycissues.org
9 years ago
Reply to  Milton

This article outlines the positives as well as the negatives:

https://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/02/traffic_talk_comments_are_diag.html

In one instance of implementation there was increase in non compliance of traffic laws.

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Lucien
Lucien
9 years ago

This is great news! I absolutely fully support this. Cars & pedestrians do not mix. Speaking from the standpoint on my mother-in-law that got hit by a cab making a left turn that failed to yield, something that could have been prevented with four way stops.

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Jeeves
Jeeves
9 years ago

As usual, another useless and time-wasting idea from grandstanding Helen Rosenthal, the do-nothing council person.

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HarveyWillJoy
HarveyWillJoy
9 years ago

Restrain cars, make more buses, allow scooters and bike to park. That is the city I want to live in.

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Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago
Reply to  HarveyWillJoy

“allow scooters and bike to park”? what does that mean? Park where? There are bike racks people park at.

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WestSide_Mimi
WestSide_Mimi
9 years ago

Might work – Give it a try.

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Marsha
Marsha
9 years ago

Yes! Wonderful idea! 96th-97th/Broadway and all the intersections around 72nd/Bwy/Amst and the Bwy/Amst intersection. Just too much movement around there!

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dannyboy
dannyboy
9 years ago
Reply to  Marsha

96 Street and Broadway has 7 crosswalks, subway station, and cars heading to or from the highway.

Yes, that is too much movement.

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Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago

They have this at 66th and Columbus. There is also a bike lane on Columbus. The vast majority of the time when I step off the sidewalk I have to negotiate around the bikes who seem to think they are allowed to do an Idaho stop and leave before they get the green light when the pedestrian light has just turned. That just doesn’t work in these situations. If they implement this at other intersections the rules need to be enforced for cyclists and pedestrians as well as motor vehicles.

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Brandon
Brandon
9 years ago
Reply to  Brandon

I should also add that at 66th St many pedestrians cross when they have Don’t Walk if they are on the north side of the intersection and not in danger of being hit by a car making the turn. They too should be ticketed.

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Milton
Milton
9 years ago
Reply to  Brandon

Here! Here! I’m all for safety but the bikes and pedestrians are just as much at fault as the cars. Negotiating the streets of NYC has become like the Wild West! All should be held responsible for obeying the rules!

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Carolyn
Carolyn
9 years ago

Great idea! I’d nominate 110th and Broadway for one such intersection: transfers between buses and train, the #1 train stop, two bus stops, one on each corner (#4 and #104, uptown and down), West Side Market, an elementary school, a drugstore, and a six-lane highway (Cathedral Parkway a/k/a 110th Street) crossing Broadway.

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Ls
Ls
9 years ago

I am a pedestrian – don’t know how to drive – but honestly there are tons of badly behaving pedestrians especially those who walk right into traffic. Also tons of badly behaving cyclists.
An issue that is never discussed is the increase in trucks and service vehicles due to development and instant gratification/Amazon/Fresh direct etc delivery

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mare
mare
9 years ago

I just came back from London where most of the busy intersections stop traffic in all directions and it is a godsend, especially since for most overseas visitors, the traffic is also traveling on the opposite sides of the streets. I agree with the other posters here about the irresponsible bicyclists who go through red lights, there must be some way they could be ticketed and the points put onto their drivers’ licenses (if they have one) or at least be fined.

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nycissues.org
nycissues.org
9 years ago

The question that no one seems to be asking is:
“Why do we need a bill to study this?”

Can’t DOT just change a few signs and traffic lights as they are doing right now?

With a little tweaking, 96th Street and other intersections already have traffic CAMs to monitor the activity:

https://dotsignals.org/google_popup.php?cid=739

Time lapse captures can be used to record activity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAWcnQ98Q7Q

Is this for budgeting purposes? We definitely need more traffic CAMs on the UWS at the critical intersections.

https://www.nycissues.org/TrafficCams.aspx

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nycissues.org
nycissues.org
9 years ago
Reply to  nycissues.org

Some additional notes about Barnes Dance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA_8wCs-PG0

https://www.denverpost.com/ci_17780418

https://gothamist.com/2007/08/14/should_nyc_brin.php

https://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-diagonal-crosswalks-20141103-story.html

https://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/politics/2013/07/8532059/transit-friendlier-weiner-wants-more-pedestrian-first-intersections

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Elaine Epstein
Elaine Epstein
9 years ago
Reply to  nycissues.org

Mr. Barnes started it in Baltimore in the 1950″s. It works! About time it is used in the UWS.

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Independent
Independent
9 years ago

Milton wrote,

I’m all for safety but the bikes and pedestrians are just as much at fault as the cars. Negotiating the streets of NYC has become like the Wild West! All should be held responsible for obeying the rules!

I must say that this is a most cogent and concise synopsis that I feel should be underscored. It seems that every story that concerns traffic safety (particularly, the dangers that intersections pose to pedestrians) brings-out tendentious, often intransigent advocates who fall into one of three distinct camps (pro-biker; pro-pedestrian; pro-motorist), each narrowly and even zealously advancing their own agenda and narrative, while mainly dismissing anything that runs counter. (Much like matters involving rent regulation or any number of other contentious topics.)

I would like to mention, as particularly troubling, adults who, with children in-tow, engage in careless and reckless behavior such as jaywalking (even into traffic); standing out onto the curb while waiting for the light to change (if they even wait for it change); or walking while under the spell of their digital master (a.k.a. their “smart” device). I am afraid that I have seen many instances of such shocking imprudence. (To say nothing of all the children I’ve seen riding scooters or even skateboarding without the protection of a helmet, mere inches from a parent…) Then there are those instances where it is the child whose eyes remain fixed-upon a diversion while walking or even crossing the street with a parent. There may be no undue danger to the child in such a situation, provided that the supervising adult remains sufficiently alert and watchful. But what kind of training is that for an impressionable youth, to be allowed to remain oblivious to his surroundings while navigating the city streets? What kind of influence?

(At least one such incident that I witnessed stands-out in my memory as having a particularly charming and even quaint aspect: the boy’s head was buried in a (paper) book. All the same, let us not forget that in the context we are discussing here, even the most wholesome diversion is no less potentially deadly than any other.)

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Seth
Seth
9 years ago

I really don’t like this idea. Other cities within the United States (and abroad as well) have implemented this crossing form. As a “New Yorker abroad”, it is extremely confusing, as I get stern looks when I proceed to cross parallel to moving cars. I can’t imagine New Yorkers suddenly changing a way of life that is basically ingrained into our psyche, especially those of us that continue to text and walk, etc.

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Reply

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