By Ann Cooper
The news has been a roller coaster of late — so much so, perhaps, that some readers are seeking respite. Many seemed to find it this week in a West Side Rag story set far from global wars and presidential races. When Gus Saltonstall informed us of the gaffe in singer Noah Kahan’s lyrics (Kahan speaks of window-shopping “in” the Upper West Side, not “on” it) dozens of commenters jumped in to agree that Kahan was in serious error.
Ham was (tongue in cheek, I hope) unforgiving:
Ham
Lapidate him!
(Need a definition of that verb? Go here.)
Others were more lenient:
RCP
In the name of poetic license, leave the guy alone.
Go here to read the entire comment thread on UWS tradition, proper prepositional usage, and the degree of seriousness of Kahan’s wording.
But keep reading here for some further context from Ellen Jovin, the Grammar Guru. Last year the Rag wrote about Jovin’s battle with the MTA for the right to set up her grammar consultation table at an UWS subway station. This week, I asked her what insights she might offer on why we choose to be on, not in, the Upper West Side.
“Prepositions are not always predictable, no matter how many patterns you study. Sometimes you just need to live there,” Jovin told me via email. Which preposition is favored can depend on local dialect and demographic boundaries, she said. “You may say ‘different from,’ others say ‘different to,’ someone else will lob in a ‘different than,’ and a furious battle will ensue.”
Jovin indicated she wasn’t ready to do serious battle over this one. After listening to Kahan’s “official lyric video,” she said: “It’s a lovely song! I definitely don’t care about the ‘in!’ I mean, of course I would try to get it right, but I guess my indifference marks me as a permanent Upper West Side outsider. I hope I am not expelled, because I love living on, in, and within the Upper West Side.”
Jovin said she may be more forgiving because she is “a nonnative New Yorker with prepositional pliability.” But for someone who has lived their entire lives “on” the UWS, “You get used to your prepositions, you don’t like other people’s weirdo prepositions, and an encounter with a surprise preposition feels like a truck just drove over your head.”
Jovin’s final thought on the story and the flurry of back and forth it sparked:
“My view is, preposition debates support democracy. At least we are talking to one another, and without violence too.”
Subscribe to West Side Rag’s FREE email newsletter here. And check out the suport button below.
Although I’m a native Bawlmoron, I’ve lived in NYC for almost 50 years and have never gotten used to the New York habit of standing “on” line, as opposed to standing “in” line, which is standard usage in most of the country. As a result, I’ve made it a habit of avoiding lines whenever I can.
I agree…I came from a small town and standing ‘on’ line always seemed odd to me.
When the internet was becoming popular in the early 90s, I made it a habit to always ask “are you in line” when asking about a physical line of people waiting for something. To be on line was becoming something entirely different around that time.
So sayeth also this native South Phillydelphian. You are wise to avoid lines. (Nota bene: at the uptown Trader Joe, which has checkout lines that snake up and down the aisles, the line monitor moves anybody using a cane to the front of the line.)
In general, what the “Guru” says about the pliability of prepositional usage is accurate – usages are idiomatic and subject to change of style. However, the use of “in,” on,” and “at” in describing location is more stable than the dialectical variation of standing “in line” or “on line.”
It has to do with telescoping in. We live “in” the United States, “in” New York, “in” Manhattan, “in” the Village” ; but “on” Amsterdam Avenue, “on” 28th Street, “on” the street where you live, “on” an island (which seems to function like a street name); finally, “at” 300 Central Park West, “at” 11 Main Street. When naming the building, however, an exception to this usage: My friend lives “in” the Ardsley.
Ironically, we do say “Musk wants to live “on” Mars. But let’s limit this discussion to living on Planet Earth.
(The writer holds an M.A. in Linguistics)
Thank you, Jeff
This might be oversimplifying things, or possibly missing a larger point, but the Upper West Side, is a side. You don’t live IN a side (of Manhattan), you live ON a side. Just like you live on an end (South End) or a shore (North shore). It’s a tract of land. Like a street. You live on a street, not in it.
You do, however live IN a city, or a community. It’s a group. You are part of it. UWSiders have many claims to individuality, but I’m pretty sure this applies anywhere. The song just gets it wrong. It wouldn’t make sense “in” the west side of anywhere.
Having loved in NYC my whole life, daughter of a born-and-raised New Yorker, who is a son of a born-and,-raised New Yorker, I did not know that waiting on line was a strange thing until college. And my linguistics professor said that it is micro regional, only people in NYC say it (maybe Long Island or NJ too?)
We live in Manhattan on the UWS; we wait on line or in a queue. Standing “in line” is a formation. “Prepositional pliability” is a fine term! I do distinguish “from” and “than”: “than” generally precedes an expressed or an implied verb: my view is different from yours; I see it differently than you [do]. Both can be comparative, and occasionally are interchangeable, especially when one sounds less awkward in casual speech — but sometimes it grates on me!
I’m a native upper West Sider, and for the life of me, I don’t know why people live “on” the upper east or west side, but ” in” – in every other neighborhood in Manhattan
Mysteries abound and that is definitely one!
Here’s my theory as to why New Yorkers say they’re waiting “on line” as opposed to “in line.” We’re a rebellious sort of people, a questioning sort, and we don’t like the militant oppressiveness of being told to get “in line,” so use we use “on line” as a natural refutation.
I am a math nerd from NYC. A friend from graduate school, also a math nerd, was visiting me. We went to a movie.
“How long will we be standing in line?” she asked.
“About 10 minutes,” I answered, “ON line.”
“I don’t see a line,” she responded, looking at the sidewalk under our shoes. “So we’re not standing ON a line.”
“Speaking for myself,” I answered, “I am not a one-dimensional object, so I could never be IN a line.”
Intrigued by the comment below, “my friend lives in the Ardsley.” Wondering if “at” also works. It sounds right for hotels (“he lives at the Pierre”) and I’m reminded of the title of a story by Eudora Welty, “Why I Live at the P.O.”