The Community Education Council (the UWS school board) is continuing its meetings about the possible rezoning of up to 11 local elementary schools. The dates and times are below and posted here.

Last we checked, the process seemed like it was at a contentious standstill.


NEWS, SCHOOLS | 71 comments | permalink
    1. dannyboy says:

      be there!

      maybe i’ll wear something distinctive

    2. Anonymous says:

      One has to wonder whether DOE will understand why there is so much resistance to PS191. According to a re-siting report issued by DOE, OTC or over-the-counter students who are “previously incarcerated teens, poor or transient or homeless youth, students over age for grade, and students with histories of behavioral incidents in their previous schools” will still be routinely admitted to PS191 – even after PS191 is relocated to the new school being built on West End Avenue. Since nothing will be changing at the old PS191, except for its location, it appears to be only a matter of time before the school receives another persistently dangerous rating. To be sure, I don’t know of one parent who will allow their children to attend school with criminals. Why DOE doesn’t get this is unclear. And so the opposition will continue with more and more taxpayer dollars being spent on proposals which go nowhere. It’s time for new leadership in City Hall and the DOE!

      • Anon says:

        What do you mean the proposal will go no where? They don’t need your approval. A new school will be ready to open next September. That school needs students so new zoning lines will be drawn.

        • Anon says:

          FYI, there is no new school opening. The CEC has decided to re-locate PS 452 into the old PS 191 space.

          I overheard a CEC member discussing this (inappropriately) on the sidewalk with a parent from his school.

          • anon says:

            Many of us have said all along that this is one dog and pony show and that the DOE and CEC has wanted to move 452 since the beginning. If this is true, then they should be ashamed of themselves for putting everyone through this. What I find even more offensive is that there was a viable plan to rezone 199 and 191 last year that would have avoided all of this.

            It will be curious to see how many 452 families enroll their children in their new school zone.

            • 452 parent says:

              My child is at 452 and we are waiting to find out the fate of our school. Very few current 452 parents in the lower grades plan to relocate, if that is what the CEC decides to do. Options include moving, testing for gifted & talented, and applying to charter schools.

            • Leon says:

              “Many current parents in the lower grades plan to relocate.” Exactly. The DOE is making plans based on current residences and school zones, but is not factoring in reality. I’m not 100% sure how one would model for this, but it seems fairly obvious to me that a lot of 452 families will not make the move, thus blowing up all of the attendance projections on which the rezoning is based. So we will just be back where we started from.

          • Anon says:

            Moving 452 is, in my humble opinion, very shortsighted for the southern portion of the district. The DOE has said, on multiple occasions, that creating a new school at the old 191 site will maximize elementary school seats in the district. I’ve heard multiple members of the CEC and elected officials complain that the data present by the DOE is unreliable and underestimates need. I think that moving 452 and not opening a new school will ensure that the southern portion of the district will face overcrowding issues 5 years from now.

            • UWSdad says:

              I live in the high 60’s near the park and under all 3 scenarios am being zoned out of 199 to the new school. It’s a much longer walk for my child (who will start at age 4 in 2018), so i am sympathetic to current 452 parents, but in the long run moving 452 makes a lot of sense. the long walk they’ll experience is just for the next few years, and it will give the new 452 a good shot at being successful out of the gate since it’s an established school.

            • 452 parent says:

              UWS dad, let me give you a reality check on what PS 452 will look like post-move. The budget will suffer from a huge dip in enrollment. You will need to re-make the PTA from scratch. In the past six months, PS 452 has “established” itself among current families as a school with a terrible atmosphere and an untrustworthy administration. It’s going to take plenty of work to undo that. Good luck to you.

            • Anon says:

              PS 452 has complained about being co-located with Anderson and Computer School (or the other middle school that was there) since it opened its doors. There has long been tension between 452 and the other administrations. The move was the idea of Principal David Parker. While I agree that making elementary school kids walk so far isn’t ideal this also isn’t something that the DOE is forcing upon the school. The school (perhaps not you) has brought it on.

            • Anon says:

              Anon – Actually this is the DOE forcing this upon the families at 452. While I do agree that the principal at 452 initiated this potential move, he did so without any parental discussion. While I can’t give you any concrete numbers, the majority of parents at the school are opposed to this move.

              I cannot speak to the tension between the administrations at the school, but I’ve always wondered why Anderson gets so much preferential treatment. They are a citywide program, not a district program. How come they don’t move?

            • Juan says:

              I have also heard that the principal suggested this move and there are many parents who oppose it (though there are definitely some who support it). How hard would it be to do a quick survey of the parents at PS 452 to see what they think? My guess is that more oppose a move than support it, but real data would be helpful.

              I also agree that it seems like moving Anderson is not being considered at all. Kids come from all over NYC (including other boroughs to go there). So moving it could be an easy solution with a lot less inconvenience than some other options.

            • Anon says:

              Juan – there is a vested interest within the CEC in keeping Anderson at 77th street. At least one CEC member is an Anderson parent. Others are looking to get a spot for their child for middle school.

            • 452 parent says:

              By the way, 452 parents begged the DOE to do a real, anonymous survey of the parent body to find out how many would support (or at least be willing) to move. They adamantly refused. So, I can only give you anecdotal evidence as a lower grade parent, there is not a single family in my child’s class who supports it.

            • UWSdad says:

              With all due respect, I don’t think a poll of the current 452 parents should be the deciding factor. It’s certainly relevant, but we’re all being impacted by the rezoning process in different ways and have different motivations and interests. To state the obvious, my neighbors and I were not polled about whether we wanted to be zoned out of 199. In any event, as I noted before, the long walk for current 452 students is a problem that will resolve itself in a few years. I am much more likely to send my kids to an established school (452parent, I understand your views, up to a point) than I am to a brand new school with no legacy of success. I think the “buy-in factor” and the role that moving 452 has on that should not be underestimated.

            • Beth says:

              @Anon – I heard from a 452 parent in 2013 that the school might expand to K-8. The only way this could happen is if the school moved. That was almost four years ago already that I heard this, so I fail to see how you are surprised by the potential move or can claim that their was no parental input. I heard about it years ago and I am not a 452 parent.

              @Anon and Juan – The Anderson School already moved several years ago from PS 9 to the O’Shea Complex.

            • Anon says:

              Beth – I am a parent of multiple children at PS 452 and there was never any serious consideration of making the school K-8. Some parents raised the issue, but the principal very quickly stated that he wanted to keep the school K-5 so as to ensure the education level that the children received, so do not make it like parents should be not be surprised about this move or the way it has all transpired.

            • 452 parent says:

              @ UWS dad, I hope you send your children to PS 452 at the 61st street location. I hope you donate large amounts to the PTA, and spend many hours of your time working to re-build the school. They are going to need your help. A LOT of help. Again, good luck.

            • Brandon says:

              Regarding Anderson getting preferential treatment — that’s a red herring. Certainly Anderson could be moved anywhere in the city. What would that accomplish? This isn’t about a shortage of space. With the new school on WES and 61st opening we will have hundreds of new seats. The populations of the existing schools and the new building just need to be reshuffled.

            • Anon says:

              Brandon – If the DOE moves 452 to the West 61st Street location you will not have hundreds of seats opening up. It will be net-neutral. All you are doing is shifting seats from one place in the district to another.

              Whether you are for or against the 452 re-site, the DOE has been very clear in all of these meetings that opening a new school at West 61st (as opposed to re-siting 452) is the plan that maximizes the potential number of elementary school sections in the southern portion of the district. One thing to remember is that up until about a year ago, the DOE’s plan was to keep PS 191 at West 61st Street and open a brand new school on 60th and WEA – somewhere along the way that plan got changed.

          • Who is it? says:

            Anon – Which member of the CEC said this? It’s time these people are held accountable. Someone should call them on this.

          • dannyboy says:

            RIVERSIDE CENTER to OPEN in 2017!

            On Wed, 8/10 Mayor de Blasio announced that the new school on West End Ave and W61st St will open next Sept (PS191’s new home), not in 2018 as previously planned.

            source: cec3 website

            • anon says:

              dannyboy – Not sure what the point of your post it….I believe most people already knew that the riverside center (where PS 191 is relocating)is going to be open in 2017.

            • dannyboy says:

              I thought to post the good news, which our Mayor announced at a Press Conference, and which is highlighted on the Community Education Homepage.

              I know that it is not on the same level as overheard gossip curbside and innuendos about cec3 members’ purported devious motives; but I like it.

            • Anon says:

              dannyboy – Fair point. I do agree that opening the school a year early is in fact good news.
              The bad news, is that I believe the DOE was not ready to have the school open early, so they have had no data for the last few weeks to back up their rezoning efforts.
              I also agree that that it is certainly better to talk about than overheard gossip! We could talk about how I don’t know you but you must be a bad person because of some of the things I read about you on this blog….see how I did that! 🙂

      • W.L. says:

        That is an extremely offensive comment. Labeling the students at PS 191 criminals, and making assumptions that because they are not wealthy they will be or are dangerous, is not a mindset to teach our children, regardless of race or status. So, should we just deny children at lower socio-economic levels an education in our public schools?

        Is your opposition about property values or education, Anonymous?

        • Anonymous says:

          The history of the school as well as the DOE report stating that they will continue to assign OTC kids, namely, those who have been disruptive or incarcerated, speaks for itself. My comment goes to that issue, not lower-socioeconomic kids.

      • Brandon says:

        Anon, I wasn’t for or against PS 452 moving, I was simply stating that there is not a shortage of seats. The new school has 700 even if PS 452 relocates that space if free. The DOE hasn’t said what they will do with it. If more elementary seats were desperately needed they would use them for an elementary school. If they don’t need more seats near 77th Street what does moving Anderson accomplish?

    3. Dana Perino's Dog Jasper says:

      I’m dressing as a scary clown

    4. Mike says:

      The DOE doesn’t understand that no parent(wealthly or poor) should have to send their child to ps191. If they did not expect any backlash, they could have done things a lot different.

      1. Remove ps191 from the department. I mean, really remove it, remove all teachers and administration. You can fire them, move them to other schools, etc….just don’t keep them around here so the school has no precedent to the past.
      2. Open a brand new school that has no history, no legacy. Don’t BS me with the “new building”, its the same school with a shiny wrapper on it. Hire 100% new teachers, bring in a successful principal from a high performing school, give the school more financial support for the first few years than other schools to encourage its success and that parents from the surrounding neighborhood will send their children there.
      3. Guarantee the safety at the school. Have a one incident you’re out policy in which if a child acts out in a dangerous way at all(bringing a knife, dangerous fights, threats…) they are kicked out of ps191. This will help remove the bad apples. I don’t mean a child gets in an argument, but if they act in any way which you deem dangerous, they need to be removed.
      4. Split the Amsterdam houses between a large number of schools(which they say they are doing, but in practicality, there numbers say differently). There is an underlying problem here and I am not trying to be racist(and you can probably call my classist here for my comment), but these families in these buildings just do not care about education as much as parents from more wealthy families and because of this, the children from the area in general will not perform to the same level. School is great in helping a children learn and thrive, but learning starts in the home. Like I mentioned earlier, the teachers need to be removed from this school to start afresh, but they are only a small piece of the bigger underlying problem, focus at education from a young age.
      5. Show the community using actual data why each building is going to each school. Show us that each school is expected to have a similar about of teaching passing the standardized tests, having similar number of children up to grade level, and show us that each school gives every child the best chance for them to succeed. Keeping ps191 the way is is will only hurt the children who are forced to go there. Wealthy parents close to ps199 who are forced to go to ps191 will just move or send their children to private school. Thus, you are just shrinking the size of ps191, keeping it around with the same issues.

      • dannyboy says:

        “Wealthy parents close to ps199 who are forced to go to ps191 will just move or send their children to private school. Thus, you are just shrinking the size of ps191, keeping it around with the same issues.”

        hey, this solves both the overcrowding problem AND makes 191 smaller and more manageable. A WIN/WIN!

        • Mike says:

          Dannyboy, think before you type. ps191 doesn’t have an overcrowding problem. Parents will just move to go to ps199 making it just as crowded.

          • UWS_lifer says:

            HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Think before you type??? HAHAHAHAHA You must be new around here buddy.

            • dannyboy says:

              promoting the idea of typing before you read is just plain unproductive,don’t you know that?

              But I wouldn’t expect you to know that. What I know of you is that you have nothing to offer the conversation, so you try to shut it down.

          • dannyboy says:

            Mike, think before you type, like I do.

            The Overcrowding at 199 will be relieved by parents moving away. That is a solution to this because so few want to reason.

      • mamaebbes says:

        Yes, I would love to see ACTUAL DATA that justifies why which zoning lines are drawn where. If they could just show us this to support their decisions, it would be a great first step.

      • Anon says:


        Are schools allowed to throw kids out if there is a violent incident? Where do they go then?

    5. Janine Serual says:

      Deblasio is doing wonders for NYC.

      • dannyboy says:

        I just heard him speak at the Fireman’s Memorial. The Mayor has a heart. I think that be working against him in this climate.

    6. NorthernUWSForgotten says:

      As I live in the northern part of the district, I continue to be amused and annoyed by this whole 452 thing. People zoned down there get to pick between one good school or walk their kids a few blocks (on the way to work nonetheless) and have another great school.

      The decision “uptown” is to move or pony up for private school. Those are the only 2 decisions given the poor poor poor state of the schools on the northern end of the SAME DISTRICT.

      When is our turn?

      • Anon says:

        NorthernUWSForgotten – I’ve been to every CEC meeting since May (my children will be impacted by the rezoning) and this question has come up a number of times. Many members of the CEC have raised the northern portion of the district and the issues facing those students and parents. The DOE has provided no real answers. However, part of the problem is that no families from the northern portion have come to speak at any meeting. You should really try and convince parents to do so. Otherwise, I am not sure how quickly (or properly) the DOE is going to respond.

        • Beth says:

          @Anon – You are incorrect. Many parents from the Northern part of District 3 have spoken at these meetings over the past year. Many of them have been 452 parents.

          • anon says:

            Beth – What are you talking about??? P.S. 452 is not the northern part of the district, it is considered the southern portion of the district. Tell me when you heard any significant group of parents from 165, 145, 163, PS 75 or any of the schools east of Morningside speak at these meetings since May. They simply haven’t

          • UWS parent says:

            Beth – Please tell me what schools you would consider to be in the northern part of the district. Based on what I have heard from the CEC, PS 452 is not in the northern part of the district.

      • Anon says:

        Northern Forgotten, the CEC has asked the DOE to include the upper part of the district in this re-zoning exercise. Whether that will make any difference to those schools remains to be see.

      • Juan says:

        So move. When I chose where to live, I did extensive research and made a number of sacrifices to live in a strong school zone. I know the lower part of the zone might seem like a bunch of billionaires, but if you look hard enough, there are plenty of affordable places to live within some of the better zones. There are a number of students who come from extremely modest means (check out the free lunch stats for PS9 and PS166) yet at the same time are not in NYCHA housing so didn’t just end up there.

        Rather than complaining, take control of your destiny. If you don’t want to move, do something to improve your neighborhood school – get involved in the PTA, raise money, encourage other parents to spend more time reading to their children from birth. Other than that, I’m not really clear now the DOE is going to help you.

        • J says:


          You’re not sure how the DOE can help us? They can help us by not destroying our schools and, perhaps, by creating good schools.

          If they destroy our good schools for which we are zoned, we will move to other school zones. So the problem will recreate itself. (Yes, we will move. Does that make you happy?)

      • Beth says:

        @NorthernUWSForgotten – I’m with you on that one. We are zoned for a school with a very high free lunch rate. I find the hoopla over 199 and 452 both infuriating and laughable. Compared to those of us who live in the Northern part of District 3, 199 and 452 parents DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM. Yet, they carry on like the sky is falling down.

        My husband and I have heard so much nonsense from these parents that we just laugh at them when we are in the privacy of our own apartment. Just recently on a Sunday morning on the south side of 72nd St. heading towards Central Park West, I heard one mother complaining to another that the DOE did not care about property values and that the fact that the DOE would not release data about how many children lived in each building because of privacy issues was “bullsh*t”. That’s not to mention the outright lies that 452 parents are spreading , i.e. “452 will be closed”, “The West 70s will lose needed seats.” It’s just nonsense.

        To repeat, compared with those of us who live in the Northern part of District 3, PS 199 and 452 parents do not have a problem.

        Please @Juan spare us a response about how parents such as yourself who spent so much time researching schools are part of some master race and as such deserve preferential treatment.

        • Brandon says:

          I certainly hope the DOE doesn’t take property values into its rezoning plans. The DOE is supposed to educate children — all the NYC children, rich or poor, owners or renters. My apartment will change from ps 199 to whatever school ends up in the 191 building. My kids will not be impacted but my property value may be. That’s fine. I’m not moving next year and it will rebound when that new school succeeds.

          • Anon says:

            Anon – And you sir, are the exception to the general rule in this case. Well said. You should hear how the lincoln towers people have complained about their property values at all of these meetings.

            • Anon101 says:

              Your comment concerning Lincoln Towers residents is not true. I attended the public hearings. I did not hear one resident speak to property values. What I did hear is residents of all ages upset that their buildings are being removed arbitrarily. I heard residents of all ages upset that young children in their buildings won’t benefit from the same neighborhood school that is down the block, that many of their own kids attended; the same school many of these residents helped by volunteering their time. I heard residents speaking out about the unfairness that luxury buildings along Central Park West and new luxury high-rise buildings on Amsterdam Ave., which are farther away, are being included and their Lincoln Towers building down the block are excluded. I heard residents of all ages advocating that all schools should be excellent schools and incorporate the DOE’s goals. I am uncertain why you are saying something that is clearly not true. What are your motives?

        • Juan says:

          Every child deserves an excellent education. And the DOE should be working extra hard to bring an excellent education to schools that currently have weaker test scores. I am 100% on board with that.

          That being said, I am tired of families who live in zones with subpar schools (which largely have been subpar for a number of years) complaining about what they were “zoned for” as if that was a passive activity. It is not as if the DOE suddenly turned some of the upper district zones from great to bad. So you made a choice, for whatever reason, to live in that zone. Take ownership of that decision. If education is that important to you, move to a better zone. Or spend a lot of time plus a few bucks on a prep book and have your kid study for G&T. Or invest your time and effort to make your school better.

          To this point, I feel a bit of sympathy for those who were in the 199 zone and are having that changed, because they are having the DOE change the zone on them. But anyone who moved into the 199 zone in the last 5 or so years and didn’t expect this to happen wasn’t paying attention, as the school has been badly overcrowded for a while so some change was bound to occur.

          To a somewhat unrelated point above, I was surprised at the number of PS 75 parents I heard speaking at a meeting I went to. I have heard mixed reviews of the school but these parents were passionate about their school and seemed to be working really hard to make it better, which was great to hear.

        • Anon says:

          Anon101 – I agree with you about the many things that the LT residents have said at these meetings. But you are not being honest if you say that not one resident spoke about property values. At the early meetings that the LT people came to, there certainly were people that spoke about property values.

          One word you used though it certain true about the process “arbitrary”. I have found it remarkable how non-transparent this entire process is. One elected official (who will remain nameless) told me that the elected officials should stay out of this process as the only way for it to be effective is to have parental involvement and support. Yet, our elected officials have their fingerprints all over this.

      • Melanie says:

        Hey, can we get together? I live in the northern, northern part of the district, closest to Columbia but still in District 3. Would love to talk! I’m asking the same questions you are asking.

    7. Anon says:

      Here’s the easy solution about 452.

      If the DOE and CEC decide to re-site the school, then every parent should be offered either (1) the right to move with the school to 61st Street or (2) be given a written guaranty from the DOE that their children can attend the school that their apartments are newly zoned for. Give the parents a choice.

      Of course once you do that, I bet you the people at PS 199 and PS 87 (where the bulk of the current 452 zone will be rezoned to) will find some reasons why they don’t want these students.

      • 452 parent says:

        @Anon, that’s exactly what they DON’T want to do. Virtually every parent who has the option would move their child to 199 or 87. It would leave 452 with about ten kids per grade. The principal would have to fire half the teachers. Guaranteed fail.

        The DOE and CEC NEED current 452 parents to attend the school at the 61st street location. They think they can force them to do it by refusing to give them seats at 87/199. Unfortunately they are wildly underestimating the number who will find another option….

        • UWSdad says:

          Purely out of curiosity, what is your specific objection to the relocation (other than a longer commute)?

        • Anon says:

          452 parent, how will they leave? Where will they go? Renters can pick up and move quickly. Owners can’t. Private school.spots for off years are scares. I just don’t think that many of them can pull this off in time. And if they have a younger kid entering K they’ll need to register early in 2017 for the best shot at getting a seat in one of the public’s they would be willing to use.

          • 452 parent says:

            @Anon, there are certainly options for unhappy 452 families. Move (if you rent). Prep your child for the Gifted and Talented test in January. Apply to the Eva Moskowiz charter. Or, temporarily “move in” with a friend who lives in the new PS 87 zone (we all know this happens…)

            @UWS Dad, PS 452 is a tiny school. Even just a 20% drop in enrollment would put the school in a terrible position, budget-wise. And the tremendous community support that the school and principal formerly enjoyed has vanished amid the threat of re-siting. Several families actually moved their kids out last year because they felt that the atmosphere had become so unpleasant.

            If the CEC pushes the re-siting through, the atmosphere will get even worse, and attrition will accelerate. Sadly, I too am waiting to find out if I will be moving my child (our lease is up in December).

          • 452 parent says:

            Also, I forgot to mention, there is a new private school opening in the west ’90’s this coming fall. It has lower tuition than most private schools (closer to what we paid for preschool). We are definitely going to look at it (I am not being paid by the school to say this, I promise).

    8. AnonNYC says:

      Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what exactly are they voting on in early Nov? Are they picking between one of three draft proposals? What happens if none of the three draft proposals get enough votes? Is there a possibility that NOTHING happens or does something HAVE to happen since there is a new school that’s constructed and ready to take kids.

      • Anon says:

        AnonNYC – Here is what I understand of the process going forward. On October 19th, the DOE is going to present to the CEC and the public a draft “final scenario.” Following the October 19th meeting, there will be 2 public hearings to take public comment on the draft “final scenario”. Based on feedback from these public hearings, the DOE will present its final proposal on November 3rd and the CEC will vote on that proposal on November 9th.

        So, the CEC is voting “yes” or “no” on one proposal that has not yet come out. I suspect that this final proposal will be some combination of the three that we have already seen.

        • Leon says:

          Thank you for the explanation. And to follow up on the not-so-stupid question above, what happens if they then vote no?

        • AnonNYC says:

          Thanks for the response. I guess my follow up question is what happens if they vote “NO” on the final draft proposal? Is it back to the drawing board then to come up with additional drafts until one passes?

          • Anon says:

            AnonNYC – I believe you are correct. If the CEC votes “no”, then it will be back to the drawing board.

            I suspect that they are working closely with the DOE to make sure the final “proposal” is one they will vote “yes” on.

      • 452 parent says:

        AnonNYC, my understanding is that the CEC will present a single scenario at the Oct 19th meeting, then hold the obligatory fake public comment sessions to “solicit feedback.” After which they will vote their “final scenario” in.

        The whole exercise is a sham, and a huge waste of parents’ valuable time and taxpayer money.

        And it’s really a shame about 452.

    9. Here it comes says:

      Albany must be licking their chops. between a governor that can’t stand our mayor and this disaster of a process, it’s no wonder that Assemblywoman Rosenthal and Senator Hoylman have gotten involved. Perhaps all a play to take back control of the public schools from the mayor.