A parent speaks at an Upper West Side zoning meeting in July.
The school board will begin debating plans to rezone several Upper West Side schools next week, and will be taking public comments at at least two hearings in September.
The times and locations of zoning events and other meetings are shown in the calendar below. You can learn more at cec3.org and read our last story about the plans here. The board, known as CEC3, is likely to make an initial decision that will whittle down its options at the Sept. 28 meeting, and make a final decision on zoning lines by late October or early November. The new zones would go into effect in fall 2017.
UPDATE: The Tuesday, Sept. 13 meeting is more of a strategy session and will be in a room that’s too small for a large group.
Hello daddy!!
These endless meetings, meant to ensure no one’s too upset are hilarious!
Dannyboy –
I’ve been to all of these meetings over the last couple of months. One thing has become clear to me, you hit it on the end. These meetings are nothing more then a chance to the DOE and CEC to say “we let the public speak.”
We all know the decisions have already been made.
I also can’t wait to hear more the of Lincoln Towers people come out and talk about how their home values are going to decrease…..
Anon, Lincoln Towers residents are not concerned about property values. They are concerned about a zone line that is drawn that does not even have a street to go through and literally cuts through their shared backyard. The arguments are entirely for the preservation of a close-knit community.
I think you may be confusing property value with the disgust that there are likely special interests at play. There are 6 new luxury high-rise buildings set to be zoned for PS 199—one 51 foot story building that has not yet been built–at the expense of Lincoln Towers. It’s simple, in order to make room for these luxury buildings, other buildings had to go.
These plans of including super luxury high rise buildings at the expense of Lincoln Towers achieves the opposite of the objectives of the DOE: To increase socio-economic diversity and decrease overcrowding. Adding super-luxury high rise buildings, instead of the older more modest buildings, actually decreases socioeconomic diversity. Including new buildings, some of which haven’t been built and that are rumored to be advertising that they are zoned for PS 199, instead of two Lincoln Towers–a naturally occurring retirement community, with very few children entering kindergarten each year–will contribute to overcrowding.
Jayne – I don’t disagree that the zoning lines seem haphazard at best. I also think the DOE’s plans are pretty flawed (but that is a conversation for another day). Having said that, at the last CEC meeting, more than 1 person that identified themselves as a Lincoln Towers resident complained that their apartment values would be negatively impacted as a result of this zoning plan.
Anon, Lincoln Towers residents are not concerned with property values. They are concerned with a zone line that is drawn that does not even have a street to go through, but instead cuts through their shared backyard—as if the DOE intentionally intended to break up this community. The arguments are focused on the preservation of a close-knit community.
I think you may be confusing property value with the disgust that there are likely special interests at play. There are 6 new luxury high-rise buildings set to be zoned for PS 199—one 51 foot story building that has not yet been built–at the expense of Lincoln Towers. It’s simple, in order to make room for these luxury buildings, other buildings had to go.
These plans of including super luxury high rise buildings at the expense of Lincoln Towers achieves the opposite of the objectives of the DOE: To increase socio-economic diversity and decrease overcrowding. Adding super-luxury high rise buildings, instead of the older more modest buildings, actually decreases socioeconomic diversity. Including new buildings, some of which haven’t been built and that are rumored to be advertising that they are zoned for PS 199, instead of two Lincoln Towers–a naturally occurring retirement community, with very few children entering kindergarten each year–will contribute to overcrowding.
I agree that community feedback will have little to no impact on the ultimate decision, but it would still make me feel better if some PS 191 parents would show up and voice their opinions, since their school is the one that is largely driving this. As it stands now, it is the bleeding heart do-gooders with no skin in the game crowd (i.e. DannyBoy) vs. the “I’m looking out for my own child’s education/ my property value and will be portrayed by the others as a self-absorbed racist” crowd.
Self-absorbed property value people, you mean?
I have more skin in the game than that. I care about children. I care about a community, I care about a society.
Oh, that’s right. Money is what is important to you.
I am glad that I did everything that I could to move this decision to its conclusion.
I have no doubt you care about the community as the community is providing you with a giant rent-controlled apartment.
Shamir,
Did I mention that the one comment that you keep repeating is brilliant? No.
Did I mention that it is incorrect?
If you continue to slander I will ask the Moderator to censure your lies.
You liar!
Be curious to know (generally) where the members of the CEC board live and whether they have children enrolled in D3 schools as I would like to see how the proposed rezoning impacts (or doesn’t impact) them individually.
Someone mentioned to me that they think there has been some shenanigans with the Lincoln Towers where the line has been drawn to preserve an “important person’s” property value.
Anyone have any insight on that?
CEC members have kids at: PS 199, PS 9, PS 166 Gifted & Talented, PS 334 (Anderson) and PS75. A couple also have children in middle school.
It is a requirement that CEC3 members have a child enrolled in District 3. The exception is the Borough President appointee (who may or not have a child enrolled in D3). I believe this year’s appointee has a child in D3.
funnybusiness – my understanding is that all members of the CEC must have children currently enrolled at a public school in the district. The CEC website does not identify where the members children attend school
I hadn’t heard about “manipulation” of the Lincoln Towers zoning line, but someone did mention at one of the meetings that Scott Stringer’s building will remain in the 199 zone and not the new school (or relocated 452) zone.
The zone lines separating only two of the eight Lincoln Towers from PS 199 have clearly been “manipulated.” In fact, the zone line that breaks up the Lincoln Towers does not even have a street to go through, but instead, literally cuts through their shared backyard. It is as if the DOE is intentionally trying to break up this close knit community.
So, somebody please help me out here because I just don’t get this. As I understand it, as the UWS became safer and more desirable over the last 20 years, more people made the decision to stay in, or move to our neighborhood and raise their families here. Certain schools got better, thereby making them more desirable to other families who wished to move the neighborhood. That makes sense, as people concerned with their childrens’ educations do what all parents try to do – move to a neighborhood or a town that has good schools. But now these families and schools are being punished by the DOE for doing just that? Does it not make sense to the DOE that any parent with the means to move if forced to send their children to a lousy school will call it a day and head elsewhere? My sense tells me it must be what they want, because that’s ultimately what they are going to get. They can’t be that naive. Or can they?
And I will provide the answer as considered by the opposing side. The other responder tends to be a bit of a lightning rod for controversy on this site but in this case provided a fair, reasonable summary of the opinion of many people on this:
Many people choose where to live based on the quality of schools. They do considerable research, and make sacrifices in terms of home size and location in order to best provide for their children. As rational as this seems, not everyone does this. Some might not have the means to live in the optimal zone for them (though I am still convinced that for many who complain they don’t have the means, if they looked hard enough, they could find a way to do so). Others made housing decisions before schools were a consideration for them and are locked into really good deals that they cannot afford to move away from.
Over the years, the parents at a number of now very good schools in the neighborhood have worked hard to build up the schools. There is a strong sense of community at these schools amongst the students, faculty and parents, which is a major factor in their success. Parents again make major sacrifices to help the school succeed, both by providing money to fund extra programs and time. Education is a top priority in many of these households and factored into the family’s choice of home location, time spent preparing the child before they entered school, and time and money spent at the school. And many would argue that the fact that many of the families live in close proximity to each other and the school is a key factor in the school’s success – family relationships grow as people bump into each other in the neighborhood, students spend less time traveling to and from school, and it is easier for parents to drop in to participate at school.
By drastically rezoning the schools, the sense of community that has thus far made them so successful will be greatly weakened. They will likely still be fine schools because many of the core attributes that existed before will still remain. But it will take some time to hopefully build them up to where they were before. And during that time, many parents might not have the patience to wait, choosing private school, moving out of the city, or various other special programs that they previously didn’t consider – I know many parents in our district who turned down gifted slots for local schools, effectively freeing up these slots for more needy children where the delta between their zoned option and gifted is much greater.
All of this is being considered for two purposes. First to alleviate overcrowding at several of these top schools. This is a necessary evil. Someone is inevitably going to be unhappy, but this can be done by trimming around the edges. Second, there is one school in the lower part of the zone whose performance is significantly lower than the rest. Noble efforts have been made to improve this school, with limited success. However, one must argue whether it makes sense to turn the rest of the district upside down in order to help this one school. These students are fully entitled to an excellent education, like all of their peers. But should this be done at the expense of all of the other neighborhood schools (with neighborhood being a very key word here)? Or are there other possible solutions? And have all of the secondary and tertiary impacts of these potential changes been fully thought through?
The other responder, dannyboy is often a lightening rod for controversy on this site because he has the courage to face off and speak the truth. Normally lynn finds herself in the position of explaining this to his attackers, but today it is my privilege.
Standing up for the weak or down-on-their luck used to be a worthy position to be in. Not today. Those who would shout you down have taken an increasingly aggressive stance, and most defer. dannyboy does not. He is to be respected for standing against indecency.
I know others have been outspoken in his support. Some have even gone so far as to Comment,
It appears to me that there are 3-4 people who continuously attempt to pick an argument with him… So is he not supposed to respond?
Yes, why not start profiling some of the frequent commenters here? I’m sure we would all like to know more about dannyboy.
Upon reflection,I should have given lynn the credit she deserves for her courage. In her own words,
lynn says:
September 2, 2016 at 4:03 pm
Now how do we get dannyboy in a featured stories in the WSR? ?
Zoning Work Tomorrow!
Karen emailed information out on Friday, however I want to reiterate that the meeting tomorrow is a working group with the mission to discuss outreach and materials for the upcoming set of hearings.
Space in room 204 is extremely limited, and three schools will be in session at Joan of Arc, so I plan to conduct the meeting accordingly. I will start promptly at 9:00 am and we will wrap with our agenda by 10:00 in order to exit the building by 10:30 at the latest. Representatives from the DOE will NOT be in attendance tomorrow.”
@Carlos. This rezoning is about utilizing all open seats in an overcrowded part of District 3. It’s not about improving one school.
“But should this be done at the expense of all of the other neighborhood schools”
I understood the plan to continue FREE PUBLIC education for all.
Not so?
“So, somebody please help me out here because I just don’t get this.” – O.K.
“As I understand it, as the UWS became safer and more desirable over the last 20 years, more people made the decision to stay in, or move to our neighborhood and raise their families here. Certain schools got better, thereby making them more desirable to other families who wished to move the neighborhood. That makes sense, as people concerned with their childrens’ educations do what all parents try to do – move to a neighborhood or a town that has good schools.” – CORRECT
” But now these families and schools are being punished by the DOE for doing just that?” A COMMON MISCONCEPTION. THERE IS NO SINGLING-OUT FOR PUNISHMENT GOING ON. THE DOE IS TRYING TO REZONE TO ADDRESS THE POPULATION DENSITY UNBALANCES CAUSED BY THOSE SAME FAMILIES MOVING IN (AND ALSO ADDRESS THE RACIAL UNBALANCES ALSO CAUSED BY THOSE FAMILIES MOVING IN).
“Does it not make sense to the DOE that any parent with the means to move if forced to send their children to a lousy school will call it a day and head elsewhere?” THE DOE DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH PARENTS’ RIGHT TO LIVE WHERE THEY WANT OR TO MOVE ELSEWHERE. THEY WORK ON PROVIDING AND IMPROVING SCHOOLS.
“My sense tells me it must be what they want, because that’s ultimately what they are going to get.” I EXPLAINED THE DOE JUST ABOVE. AS TO MOTIVES, JUST AS THEY ARE NOT OUT TO PUNISH YOU (SEE #1 ABOVE), THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO REMOVE YOU FROM YOUR HOME.
“They can’t be that naive. Or can they?” TRY TO DROP THESE IDEAS THAT THE DOE IS OUT TO GET YOU. THEN YOU CAN START WORKING TOWARDS A USEFUL EDUCATION PROGRAM FOR YOUR CHILD.
What needs to happen is that the people in Lincoln Towers, who bought with the knowledge that they were zoned for PS199 should sue the DOE immediately to stop their plans. The DOE is well aware that people buy based on what school a building is zoned for with every expectation that it will remain that way because why on earth wouldn’t it? The damages are loss to property value and well as cost of private school and perhaps pain and suffering. I am starting to warm up to the idea of school choice. The government, with their fancy ideas, is basically ruining things.
Shel – Unfortunately, I do not believe the people in Lincoln Towers have any cause of action against the DOE. The Chancellor’s regulations provide the DOE very wide latitude to relocate schools and to rezone school districts.
I’m not a big supporter of this rezoning plan but you are absolutely ridiculous!
Shel articulated a reasoned argument and opinion. You, Zulu, neither questioned, challenged nor refuted any of the substance of shel’s post but instead summarily dismissed all of it, seemingly a priori, as “absolutely ridiculous”. If anyone appears ridiculous here, I’m afraid it would be you.
The argument might have been reasoned but the logic is so flawed that it defies both common sense and basic morality. I don’t support the rezoning of the schools because I don’t think it will achieve its purpose. However, the purpose or intent of the rezoning is by all means just and in my mind should be pursued by other means.
shel reasons that the value of property is based on the performance of the local school which in many cases is true to a certain extent. So far so good, however shel then goes out bounds when he/she atrributes the responsibility to maintining the value of such property to the maintained performance of the school. In Economics this is called an ‘externality’ and by implying that the DOE is responsible for the value of the Lincoln Tower apartments, shel is being absurd and ridiculous. Because as far as externalities are concerned this one is quite far and removed.
Once shel finishes suing the DOE, shel can file a lawsuit against the planet’s erratic weather patterns for the loss of crops. Or shel could also try suing England for the Brexit and the loss in value of US stocks.
On a side note, and I can’t believe I will echo dannyboy on this sentiment, but it’s disheartening to see such callousnes and indiference to kids and their schooling. I want to believe this plan will work but I’m not sure all the repercussions and unintended consequences have been considered. I’m crossing all my fingers and toes on this one.
Carlos says:
“However, one must argue whether it makes sense to turn the rest of the district upside down in order to help this one school. These students are fully entitled to an excellent education, like all of their peers. But should this be done at the expense of all of the other neighborhood schools (with neighborhood being a very key word here)?”
I agree with your points Carlos, but one clarification. The students are entitled to an excellent education, true. But nobody can prove to me that the teachers there at PS191 are any worse than any other teachers. Nor can they prove that the facilities are worse than any other facilities. In other words, the children at PS191 are arguably getting just as good an education as the students at PS199 and I am certain that they are. This was never about good education, because it should be obvious to anyone that the quality of teachers is generally the same as it is in PS191 and PS199. Something else is going on here clearly.
“Something else is going on here clearly.”
just a little incendiary?
dannyboy, you sound very disgruntled
Margi,
I am disappointed in the reactions that neighbors express. I am gradually finding out that many neighbors believe that the Public Schools purpose is to increase their apartments value, or worse, that minority children deserve different treatment then their own.
It would be inhuman not to be disappointed.