Parents of waitlisted students presented their arguments for why their kids should be allowed to attend PS 199 in June.
By Laura Schiller
Is Work Hard, Be Kind the Right Motto for Our School…?
The summer before my daughter starts kindergarten was supposed to be happy and filled with anticipation. Instead, a dark cloud has hung over our home. Our daughter is #90 on a waitlist for our school, PS 199, and that number has tormented us since we received our official letter from the Department of Education in April.
We intentionally bought our apartment in the school zone before our daughter was born and always assumed she and her younger brother would attend. She’s played in the schoolyard since her toddler days and sings “I’m going to kindergarten at PS 199!” with joy every time she gallops past the school. We haven’t yet broken the news. Most of her friends from preschool are headed there; the few families we knew who were also waitlisted have since received placement and slipped away from our lives.
When we first realized our unlucky fate, I called the principal to ask for a meeting so I could learn why there was not enough room for everyone. She refused to meet. When I pressed, she retorted with something to the effect of “Why do you care? You’re #90…you’re not getting in!”
But it didn’t make sense. During the prior summer, the school added a seventh kindergarten class—totaling 7 classes of 25 students in each—to accommodate that year’s waitlist of 98. This year’s waitlist was 93. Yet instead of adding classroom space again, the school was taking that seventh class back. This left 57% of zoned children (who did not already have sibling priority at the school) with a randomly drawn waitlist number and a welcome letter to a school outside of our zone, PS 191.
My husband and I later met with the district superintendent. She explained that PS 199 needed the extra classroom for a cluster room, where children have art, movement, and science. But the school already had five other cluster rooms and didn’t need that cluster room the previous year. Leaving her office, we still didn’t understand why a sixth cluster room would be needed at the expense of an entire class. “Go to PS 191 and make it the best damn school in the city,” she insisted.
In June, a meeting was held by the Community Education Council to address the waitlist and overcrowding issues. At a long formal table in a school auditorium sat 10 or so Department of Education officials all with the words “Planning” “Operations” and “Admissions” in their titles. Our group of waitlisted parents gave a Powerpoint presentation demonstrating that space did indeed exist at PS199. The numbers added up. We highlighted excerpts from the Chancellor’s Regulations that state “It is the primary obligation of a zoned school to serve its zoned students” and “A zoned school has a responsibility to serve all children who live within its attendance zone.” The regulations also demand that non-mandatory programs be eliminated to make space for all zoned children.
While a few of the DOE officials took notes, not one of them said a word. Parents on our team expressed their devastation and asked for a solution. To our horror, a cohort of parents representing the PS 199 PTA stood up to announce, “Our school is already too crowded. There is no more room.” Subsequently, nothing was done to alleviate the situation. My countless emails and phone calls to the Department of Education went fully ignored.
At the end of July, a group of parents from the waitlist met with the deputy chancellor. We showed up hopeful that a solution would be discussed—trailers, cluster rooms, or an annex were all possible scenarios since we had been reading articles about schools citywide making such provisions. “There simply is no room at PS199,” the Deputy Chancellor explained, flanked by three additional planning/operations officials. “But PS191 is a fine school. You will love it.”
The next day PS 191 appeared on the 2015-2016 New York State list of Persistently Dangerous Schools Designation Based on Violent and Disruptive Incident Reporting, with 97 incidents in one recent year, including 21 with a weapon. Our spillover school was no longer an option. The Department of Education is now required by the Federal No Child Left Behind Law to place our daughter in another school. But with less than three weeks left before the school year starts, we have not been offered any other option.
When we walk past our zoned school with its Work Hard, Be Kind motto on the front, and our daughter asks, “Is this my kindergarten school?” we still don’t know what to say.
Read more about the PS 199 waiting list here.
As a parent myself, I can see why this would be extremely frustrating and feel unfair. But, neither the real estate agent (at least I hope not) nor the city promised or guaranteed that space would be available at PS199, or at any other school for that matter. My understanding is that PS199 is not alone in over-crowding or waitlisting applicants (PS87, PS290, PS6…). Parents need to understand, accept, as fair or unfair as it may seem to them, that no one can or is guaranteeing their kids a spot at the closest school to their residence. NYC does guarantee a spot a one of its public schools, just may not be the one of your choice or the one closest to your residence. Adding more children to PS199 is not the answer – it will neither help those already at the school or those entering the school. It will create an unhealthy, unsafe and unproductive environment. Two wrongs do not one right make. If anything, PS199 needs to cut back even more. The whole reason why PS199 came to be the school that it is (was) is because of the great education it offered and that can not happen if the school is overcrowded and resources are taken away from the school. The families on the waitlist need to “move on” and find the best option they can before those options also close on them. PS452 is a great schoo, so is PS87 and PS9. You also have PS811 and there is also Success Academy.
Hope your kids are enjoying 199, David Collins. Interesting to think what you’d be saying if you were on the other side.
Why do you assume that I am a parent of a student at PS199? Seems like emotions are trumping logic and common sense and constructive discussion.
If this is your child, will you be able to “move on”?
It’s selfish to sacrifice these children’s educational opportunity for other’s entertainment space.
Is the DOE telling the parents is that section A 101 of the Chancellor’s Regulations allows for students who go to their assigned overflow school to transfer back to their zoned schools the following year -in waitlist order – if there is room? This is not an automatic process, and the parents must know about it and request it.
The DOE usually caps kindergarten classes at 25, but this year they are adding an additional 12 students to 6 classes, so there will be 27 per class.
The Chancellor’s Regulations also state that the the school is not legally allowed to turn away any zoned kids in 1st grade or higher until every class is maxed out at 32.
If you do the math, next year there will be 30 additional seats available in 1st grade. This is more than the number of remaining children on the waitlist.
https://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/1CC25F63-74E8-41A6-8031-490F206F148D/0/A101.pdf
If in fact that the school or larger DOE is not being upfront about this process, it is a shame. The incoming 1st and 2nd grades are approaching if not at 32 per class level anyway. The way that these additional seats are allocated in the future might as well be done in an orderly fashion based on the Chancellor’s Regulations, and not based on who knows whom or who better understands the system.
The new reality is that many parents are now getting around the waiting list issue by putting their kid in private kindergarten if waitlisted, and then registering their kids as 1st graders.
The DOE claims it got through the long waitlist last year, but that is misleading. When parents were finally called about an extra class being added in late summer, many had already financially committed to private schools. Now a substantial number of these students are entering 1st grade at 199 – and maxing out the classes.
I suspect that the 90+ list was made shorter because many families quickly registered their kids into private schools again this year. Well according to the Chancellor’s Regulations, those kids now go to the back of the line and the kids who take the placements offered to them keep their right to attend 199 as 1st graders.
Who am I? I’m a parent of a 199 child who isn’t going to turn her back on these families as some on the PTA and CEC are happy to do. I also think the struggling parents who are still on the waitlist (because they did not have 40k to drop in a private school), should know their rights.
Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response, 199 mum! I just want to point out that 199 reduces the number of classes going from 1st to 2nd grade by one class. There are 6 1st grade classes going into 5 2nd grade classes. This is the reason the current 2nd grade classes are maxed out at 32, and the school is turning away zoned 2nd graders! 199 doesn’t have to reduce the number of classes. It would be to the benefit of every 2nd grader if the 160-odd kids are spread over 6 classes of 27-28 rather than 5 classes of 32!!
199mum, I do not know the exact number of 2nd graders on the wait list, but the number is less than 10. They could easily clear that list in a day by not collapsing the classes. Right now 199 is making all those families wait citing that the classes are full (because they have collapsed 1st grade classes). Perhaps they are thinking that if they wait long enough, the families will enroll elsewhere and they will “clear” the wait list that way!
My understanding is that one reason is that they do not want to continue thw negative impacts on special area instruction. However, as others have written, the Chancellor’s Regulations say that the school is not allowed to turn away students for that purpose. Follow the link above.
They may also fear that if too many cohorts of students get too big, in the long run they would get to 34 classes. However, rezoning (which obviously needs to be done) could possibly mitigate that.
Normally they do collapse from 1st to 2nd, but not always – you can see above that one year they did not.
Some kids turned away from 2nd grade will have a right to transfer to 199 next year in waitlist order: 1) if new spots open up by kids leaving and 2) the children go to the designated overflow school.
Do you know how many are on the 2nd grade waitlist?
199mum, thank you again very much for your factual response. If my calculations are correct, in the incoming 2015-16 school year 199 will have 6 K, 6 1st, 5 2nd, 5 3rd, 5 4th, and 5 5th grades, for a total of 32 classes again. This is one class FEWER than in the past two years. 199 is achieving this class reduction by collapsing 6 1st grade classes of 27 into 5 2nd grade classes of 32, all while keeping zoned 2nd graders out of 199. Why can’t 199 keep the number of 2nd grade classes at 6, which would keep class sizes more reasonable and clear the wait list?? As you pointed out, this would not result in a net increase of overall classes at 199.
graduating199family, it is natural that people are going to come to different conclusions about what should be done about the situation – that’s because whatever the outcome, there will be winners and there will be losers. There isn’t one “correct” solution, but there are correct and incorrect statements of facts. It is not okay to misrepresent the facts or just quickly write a snarky response regardless of whether you know what your are talking about.
I didn’t write that the classes never have to be collapsed. What I wrote was that they haven’t been collapsing them from kindergarten to 1st grade. Your insistence that they have been just isn’t true.
There will be 6 first grades this year, and in the three years previous there were three first grades. That is four straight years of six classes of 1st graders.
I have the 2012-2013 Directory booklet in front of me. There were 6 kindergartens, 6 first grades (Deakin, Fields, Fischer, Jimenez, Park, and Vatkina), 5 second grades, 6 third grades, 5 fourth grades, and 4 fifth grades = 32 classes.
The list of the number of classes for the 2013-2014 year are posted online under the September 2013 school minutes. There were 6 kindergartens, 6 first grades, 5 second grades, 5 third grades, 6 fourth grades, and 5 fifth grades = 33 classes https://www.ps199pta.org/resources/september-2013
As of today the P.S. 199 site still has last year’s faculty and staff list up (2014-2015). There were 7 kindergartens, 6 first grades (Deakin, Fields, Fischer, Jimenez, Katzman, Vatkina), 5 second grades, 5 third grades, 5 fourth grades, 5 fifth grades = 33 classes https://www.ps199pta.org/site_res_view_template.aspx?id=c25773b8-90c0-4af6-9807-ec5d33d58e22
If they take down the links, I will upload screenshots if necessary
199 mum — you are actually not correct. PS199 has reduced the number of classes EVERY year from Kindergarten to first grade. Most of the last 6 years, there were 6 K and then it went down to 5 1st grades…and stayed at 5 classes until 5th grade (where it often goes down to 4).
That is part of the planning…otherwise, if it isn’t collapsed, there would need to be 6 more classrooms used in the school.
UWSparent, You are correct. The incoming 2nd grade is maxed out because they are now collapsing six 1st grade classes into five. They are able to do that because the 2008 birth year more easily got through the waitlist in June or July without as much drama. The kindergarten had six classes of 25, and later in first grade the cohort had six classes of about 27.
Birth year 2009, last year’s kindergarten class, had seven classes of 25, or about 175 kids. They are collapsing seven classes into the normal six, with about 29 kids per class. That left an opening for at least 18 additional kids for next year’s first grade – with a max of 32 kids per class (and it is filling if not entirely filled).
The kids taking up these seats were primarily the ones that wanted 199 last year, but jumped to private schools when they thought they could not get in. By August (when a 7th l class opened) these families had already paid a hefty share of private school tuition – plus they has signed a contract to pay the entire year’s tuition.
UESparent’s comment brings up a good point. If the school collapses this year’s kindergarten cohort of six classes of 27 next year into five classes of 32 in first grade (like they did the 2008 cohort from 1st to 2nd grade) – it would mean that only a few would get in through the process I mentioned above (there is always a little attrition).
This would be the first time in years that a first grade would be capped at 5 classes, so it would be a bold move for 199 to do this. I think that waitlisted parents would have an argument that 199 should not be further reducing the number of classes in this way when there is a process for the transfer of displaced zoned students (as I explained in my previous comment).
However, the DOE may argue that 5 classes per grade needs to be the new standard for 1st grade because the upper grades aren’t shrinking through attrition as much as they had before. Here is where the parents of older vs. newer children begins.
There is a comment below that if you add a seventh class every year then you eventually end up with 7 classes in every grade throughtout. That is not exactly true because the higher grades hold more children. What it does mean is that the cohort may never get to 5 classes per grade.
I think the poster is saying a lot more than just “move on”. I would agree with him that parents are likely better off focusing on other options than trying to force the issue. It seems clear that doing so is either not going to change things or will make the school experience for their kids and the kids already enrolled in the school much less valuable.
where do your kids go to school David?
In what way does that matter or factor here – how many kids I have, where they go to school, how old they are?
Also, David, PS 452, 87 etc are not being offered as alternative options at this time.
With the influx of new high rises to our part of town, comes the influx or more children/families. More, I’m afraid, then our neighborhood/City resources can handle. Not only are there too many children for our current number of schools – which are in dire need of complete replacement of structural facilities, but too much car traffic, not enough parking spaces, too much crime not enough open space too many homeless on the streets and burgeoning quality of life issues on the Upper West Side. Older/smaller schools either need to be replaced with more modern/larger ones or have additions built onto them (think vertical). But perhaps most of all, there needs to be better zoning to keep the huge, glass and metal buildings to a minimum. None of this is a short term solution to Laura’s problem – she’s clearly got to find another school for her child. Charter or private, religious or experimental. There’s an answer somewhere.
Yes Jezabel! New development opened in the last five years: The Red Cross building on 66th became the residential tower Aire, the new XX residential building on Amsterdam just opened, soon the former location of the synagogue will become another residential tower. 0 new schools built in our neighborhood. Remember only two years ago the Bloomberg administration was going to allow PS199 to be knocked down to build – another residential tower – with PS199 in its basement?! The footprint slated for this proposed updated PS199 was no larger than its current footprint. Corruption? Thank God our community fought back and Bloomberg on his way out didn’t want to be seen fighting for the developers. Let’s not waste our energy fighting among ourselves – we are all getting screwed in the unchecked overdevelopment of our community.
Boo-Hoo
Very constructive comment. We appreciate your input.
So if #90 gets in what do you say to #91? Or #105? Only so many kids can go to a single school.
You can play around with the numbers until you are blue in the face but in the end there is greater demand than there is space. Not everyone who wishes to attend PS 199 can.
David, those cluster classrooms belong to those waitlisted Kindergarteners in the zone, under the Chancellor’s regulations. Stop acting so entitled – it is the Kindergarteners who are entitled but are being denied what they are legally entitled to, by a PTA and a CEC that is selfishly working against five year old children and in violation of the regulations, instead of demanding additional space from the DOE on behalf of all zoned children. The self-interest and failure to think creatively on behalf of children is disgusting.
Get her into PS452 … I have heard nothing but good things about yet. We did the same thing (moving to neighborhood largely for school reasons) several years ago and got our kid into 199 … if they had forced her to go to 191 I would have gone postal probably, but while we were waiting to hear we looked into 452, and it seemed like it would be a decent alternative. good luck.
Also yes, the city has been completely negligent in not keeping up with the demographics of the neighborhood, green-lighting giant new apartment buildings with no apparent thought as to where the extra kids will go to school. It’s infuriating
PS452 is a zoned school now. It is not offered ( at least yet) as an alternative. These last 30-40 waitlisted kids have no solution yet either. And it is the end of August here
I have heard that if you email the principal of PS 452, you can meet with him, and that he is willing to make room for students who didn’t get into other schools.
The DOE is getting away with its chronic failure to plan for years, by pitting the parents in the community against each other. It is a fact that those cluster classrooms belong to those waitlisted Kindergarteners in the zone, under the Chancellor’s regulations. The PTA is flat out wrong and its self interest disgusts me, when it should be working on behalf of those children and the school to push the DOE to rent annex space and build more classrooms.
Well Laura, your child has just learned their first lesson – You can’t always get what you want!
It’s a real shame they are going to have to go to a school with children of color or who speak a funny language. Tough sh!t! As a progressive UWS’er one should be thrilled they are in this situation to co-exist with others of different backgrounds, right?
Richard you dispensed some thought provoking advice courtesy of The Rolling Stones “You can’t always get what you want!” (an obvious choice for teaching children life lessons) “children of color who speak a funny language” perhaps you mean a diverse, multilingual student population? That describes PS199 accurately. Since we are dispensing advice, don’t skip your naps it makes you trollish.
I’m not a parent, though feel for ya. What amazes me most is the rudeness of many of the commentators. Some people never learn kindness, compassion or empathy. Truly hope all works out for your daughter.
Exactly right, Richard. If even a couple of those waitlisted parents sent their (white, privileged) kids to 199, the school would begin to change overnight. Not fair, not ethical, but reality. Everyone knows that the “other” kids are not the ones who matter (politically or otherwise) As a born and raised white UWS’er who attended only local (white minority) public schools, I say shame on you all….
Richard, your comment is really obnoxious and you are missing the point entirely!
It’s all about not wanting to go to a school that is persistently, not ocassionally, violent.
There is a federal law to protect children from being in that environment.
Richard, those cluster classrooms belong to those waitlisted Kindergarteners in the zone, under the Chancellor’s regulations. So, this isn’t a case of not getting what she wants, it’s a case of the DOE needing to do its job, under the regulations. I bet you are on board with that, right?? Because you appear to be such a respectful and law abiding person.
You just keep repeating yourself over and over MC. Why stop with the cluster rooms? Turn the gym into more classrooms too! That way the already overcrowded school could accept 200 more kindergarteners! And everyone would miss out on enrichment classes that are part of the reason the school is so well-regarded. This handwringing and refusal to accept reality has gotten ridiculous. Life isn’t fair. Time to move on. There are no guarantees in life. Gawd. Even my 6 year-old gets that concept.
The school is obviously over-crowded. Hard to argue that given it has seven kindergarten classes. An insane number. The whole reason PS199 came to be the great school that it is (was) is because of the great education it offered and that can not happen if the school is overcrowded and resources are taken away from the school like cluster rooms. I can’t see how any logical/reasonable person would argue that the primary and sole focus should be to get all those 90+ families a spot, even if that means getting rid of the cluster rooms, further overcrowding the school (if that is possible) and greatly diminishing the educational experience of every child. There are other schools in District 3. It is up to the DOE now to decided which of those other schools in District 3 these families can attend. I don’t know which schools exactly those would be, but I do know they likely will not be PS199.
Sorry to say but these parents were naive to think that they were guaranteed a spot or that this was their God-given right to attend a certain school. PS199 has had over-crowding issues FOR YEARS and to think that by renting or buying an apartment in the school zone that you were guaranteed a spot is just naive. Unfortunate, but naive nonetheless.
You are quite correct. One year, PS199 and 87 opened NINE kindergartens and only recently overcame the detrimental effects of packing in all those kids. DOE knows better. It has been many years since it was ‘safe’ to move to a good number of zones across the city and assume a guaranteed seat in the local school. I will be curious to hear if what parents at 191 are saying is true – that something was mishandled re: incident reporting at their school.
Guess what…you cant afford to live on the Upper West Side and probably NYC.
There is no right to live in NYC so we all have to live with the realities of life in the big city. You wanted to have kids, it was your decision. Deal with it or move to Jersey but either way don expect us to care.
Sheesh! We all have our own problems. Whats next? a GoFundMe page so your little darling can go to Dalton?
I applaud you Laura, what a great momma you are to your babies. Every parent wants their child to be safe, healthy, and have their educational needs met. Our UWS community has been a blessing and it is a shame to see it erode and see parents who once shared common playground pitted against one another. Politicians have shifted blame from one group (parents) to the next (DOE). I wonder why these politicians are not fighting for their youngest constituents?
The PS 199 wait list issue stretches beyond just Kindergarten. There are currently wait listed zoned children in 1st and 2nd grade, some of them have siblings at PS 199. Yet these zoned children are being denied space at PS 199 and PS 199 is unable/unwilling to resolve the situation by either adding an extra class or by adding 1-2 children to existing 1st and 2nd grade classes. Adding just 1 or 2 extra seats per class would clear those wait lists. If 2 seats were added to each K class, why can’t the same be done for 1st and 2nd grade classes?
Class size is directly connected to learning.
Those classes are already at 32 children.
Please don’t tell me anyone thinks it’s ok to have 34 6 year olds in a classroom and that it would translate to an good learning environment.
Ronni, I agree with you that having 34 children in a class is not good (even 32 is too many, for that matter). The real problem is the fact that 199 REDUCES the number of classes going from 1st grade into 2nd grade by one. So instead of 6 classes of 27-28, the children are being squeezed into 5 classes of 32! If 199 kept the number of classes the same, it would benefit ALL 2nd graders while clearing the 2nd grade wait list easily. Shame on 199.
Let’s just get the facts correct too. PS199 generally reduces the classes by one for kindergarten to first grade. They do not generally reduce from first to 2nd…they had been having 5 classes in first and 5 in 2nd for many years. If they did one year, it was also due to the classroom availability — which is the biggest restraining issue here.
UWSparent, they are not supposed to be turning away 2nd graders to keep special area instruction. Read the Chancelor’s Regulations at the link listed way above.
Please see my comment to graduating199family above where I prove with data that they DO NOT generally reduce classes from K to 1st. It usually, but not aways happens from 1st to 2nd.
Thank you for the clarification. However, here is the question: is it legal for a school to collapse the classes when there is a wait list of zoned children? Some zoned 2nd graders will not be able to attend 199 because of this “collapsing” policy. What do the regulations say about that??
Elementary school classes in 1st and higher are capped at 32 kids. It is not ever going to be 34. That’s why waiting lists are created – it happens when the legal capacity for every class in the grade is at the maximum.
Dear Laura,
I bet that at least 50% of the incoming kindergarten are from other districts… you know those who have better connections or “influence” with the DOE…I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them are “close” to the PTA 😉
This is NYC!!!
I find this letter really in bad taste, if there is no room in the school there is no room in the school. I wouldn’t want my child in a school with no art or gym, or a place to sit in the lunch room, simply because they were forced to add more students. I’m a teacher and know the damage that can do.
There is a lot of transportation in this city to get you to a lot of schools. Get over it, you never should have promised this to your kid in the first place.
As a teacher you probably shouldn’t state that someone should “get over it”. Now while the author’s letter will be criticized each and every way, and ultimately her child will not end up in the school of her choice, she is pointing out a bigger problem that exists with the DOE and hence not something that should be allowed to continue. If more people like her complained and didn’t settle for incompetence throughout the system perhaps more schools would be in a better place to educate.
I don’t think the author needs to get over it. I think she has a legitimate concern that the DOE is unable to provide a high quality, safe school in her neighborhood and within a reasonable distance. Many UWS families are now facing the same miserable situation that folks in areas like East New York and Brownsville confront – limited access to successful schools. People viciously debate the need for charter schools and public vouchers for parochial/private schools. But people demand these school options because the DOE is unable to maintain an adequate number of quality schools. I applaud Ms. Schiller’s determination and wish her family well. As a former DOE teacher, I would fight just as hard for my child’s school placement.
Charter schools is a whole other debate…while there will always be “better” schools, students should be able to go to ANY school and get a quality education regardless of neighborhood. The more integration the better the school will become. The more involved the parents are the better the school. No one is guaranteed anything nor should you expect things to always go your way. I went to ps87, and it was over a mile away.
The author needs to get over PS199. Not over being given a spot in another school in district 3, and certainly not about her child or for that matter any child receiving a quality education. I don’t think anyone is saying or implying that she get over those things. But, she and all those parents who rented and bought apartments or townhouses in the PS199 zone or district 3 thinking that they were destined to send their kids to PS199 were wrongly informed, naive or did not do their research. Now the DOE needs to handle this as best they can and offer these families spots at schools that make sense for them to get to and that will hopefully offer a comparable education to PS199. Reading all these comments would make one wonder why Deblasio was so intent on bringing pre-k to NYC when its painfully obvious and frustrating and sad to see situations like this still taking place.
David, you just presented evidence to me that you do not live within the district 3, PS199 catchment. There are a handful of townhouses in the neighborhood. They don’t seem to turn over. I suspect if a family can afford a town house they are happy to pay $45k a year to choose from a growing number of private schools. Most families who live here and send their children to PS199, a mostly General Education (with some Inclusion and Special Education classes) live in lesser expensive buildings like Lincoln Towers, Tower 67 etc. Many bought years and years ago before these high price tags became the norm. They often have two children, born at Roosevelt, and do not live in more than a one or two bedroom apartment, usually sharing one bathroom. These are commited New Yorkers invested in the community. These are not multi millionaires with summer homes. Lol.
David, I retract since you live on 70/WEA and offer my condolences on living so near the upcoming construction site on 70/Amsterdam. It’s sure to be a glass monstrosity casting a long shadow across 70th Street. And I see what a headache this school mess has been on grandparents as well. Many hoped to keep their grandkids in the area, but look on in dismay as their native NY children give up and move to Westchester.
I have been living on WEA off 70th for 50 years!
I agree with the remark about Deblasio make a promise and passing a law without the proper research and information on the neighborhood demographics to sustain it. It’s a lovely thought that every child can have an equal chance at started an education early and helping to ease the burden of parents who work full time. But someone in his administration should have known that access the a local school and the conditions within that school are usually high on the list of priorities of parents with young children. It’s not just that they have a place to go, it’s also about the quality of life within those walls. Hopefully it’s not kindergarden for the sake of sticking your kids someplace, it’s about the physical and emotional well being of your child and an opportunity for them to love to learn.
How about home schooling?
The issue of the 7th section is a little more complex than it may appear.
Last year the school added a seventh K section in lieu of a cluster room. This decision was not made lightly, not because of the 2015 intake but because of the ramifications as those children move through the grades.
Think about it. If you permanently expand kindergarten by one class you essentially need to ultimately expand every grade by one class as those kids move through the school. In a K-5 school that means you need to find SIX additional rooms NOT ONE to accomodate the expansion. (And yes, thats taking larger class sizes and attrition in the upper grade into account)
Its frustrating that the school and DOE and CEC have been unable or unwilling to effectively communicate this absolutely crucial fact. Leaving these poor waitlisted parents understandably bemused and angry by the seemingly capricious decision to remove the seventh section.
I agree completely that this posting is an unconsidered factor in this debate, and I thank the writer for putting it on the proverbial table.
I think it’s a shame that waitlisted families are being pitted against enrolled families, neighbor vs. neighbor. Can we just stipulate that all the families are behaving reasonably in this climate of scarcity (i.e., waitlisted families are understandably valuing placement for everyone over the availability of cluster classrooms, while enrolled families who know what it’s like to have a music or art room are understandably valuing cluster classrooms over every individual student’s right to go to their catchment school?
Meanwhile, the real villains in this drama — 1) the DOE, for its staggering lack of foresight in remediating the scourge of overcrowding even though they’ve known about it FOR YEARS NOW, and 2) the real estate developers who continue to build glass palaces all over the neighborhood and milk the PS 199 connection for as much as the market will bear by advertising that these luxury apartments are in PS 199’s zone, without paying a penny in “impact fees” to fund new school construction in the high-quality catchments like PS 199’s that they are destroying with overcrowding — get away virtually scot free of blame and recrimination, as they always do.
All you aggrieved parents on both sides, wake up and direct your rhetorical fire at the real enemies! A united movement to get the DOE to face up to overcrowding in a systematic way, and insist that developers in overcrowded catchments remit some not-insignificant portion of their obscene profits in impact fees so that the community can plan for the dislocations that they cause, would be much more constructive than this civil war that is playing out between neighbors.
Alas, @Joe B., you forgot to mention Mayor Bloomberg. For 12 years he did nothing but promote charter schools over real public schools. His kids went to private schools, so why bother to care about the rest of us who can’t afford that rarified environment and have to send our children to real public schools?
Joe, kudos to you. This is an empathetic and well-thought-out response. Now if only everyone suffering would do as you suggest and go after the real culprits, the DOE and the developers. Sigh. A girl can dream, can’t she?
My issue is with the overall lack of transparency.
These persistent concerns about people registering with their aunt, renting a small studio, etc. for residency are probably grounded in a some reality. They should make a better attempt at vetting the families. The low level corruption in this city is pervasive.
The situation is unfortunate… I feel her pain, but unfortunately, there isn’t a good solution. But it is not unreasonable to expect that by moving in a district you kid gains access to that school. People throughout America plan moves based on schools for their children and it is not an easy, or cheap process to move. The people behind the “get over it, move out, etc.” sentiment should not cast stones. Aside from your complete lack of compassion, attacking a mother who simply wants to best position her child for the future will come around. The children, as we all know, are the future (taxpayers).
This issue isn’t about overcrowding at PS199, it is about the issues currently faced by PS191. If PS191 was considered a decent school wait listed 199 kids would just go there. The test results of PS191 are appalling. And now the community finds out it is a dangerous school. It isn’t about the color of the attendees’ skin, it comes down to these factors. Knowing the test results and the fact the school is dangerous, what parent would want to put their child in this environment? We all want our kids to get the best start in life that is possible. So what is the solution? The only solution seems to be to split up those kids feeding PS191 from Amsterdam Houses across all schools on the Upper West Side. It may sound harsh bussing kids to school but these kids deserve a good education also and being segregated into one underperforming school will not achieve this. Focus then needs to be put on making PS191 on par with PS199 and the new school to be built in the Riverside Complex.
This comment is on the right track and offers a real solution.
Sadly, PS 191 doesn’t provide the best education. Why should it, it serves minorities. Now, that maybe more white children will attend it will force the school and city to take notice. I reside and zone for PS 199 and heard many times for different parents they will never send their children to Ps 191 because it not fair for their white kids to deal will “those kids”
I find it a joke these parents callied themselves progressive. Let’s be honest, the Upper West side is racist and segegrated as possible.
Perhaps they should do more careful
address checking of those already enrolled in 199. I personally know quite a few families who have rented second apartments in the zone or somehow finagled their address to get their kids in. This takes seats away from those who rightly live in the zone.
I agree, this is a huge problem, as I know at least three families from my daughter’s preschool who rented an apartment for a couple months in Trump Towers to qualify for 199, then moved back to their co-ops on 97th, 98th and 99th streets. Take the time to verify addresses DOE, instead of holding more meetings. and for the record, “unfairness” is across the board in NYC DOE policies. My daughter qualified for NEST and got waitlisted, we got a local G&T, which is great, but not our first choice. Siblings with lower scores were given a spot before her. So much for rewarding merit. We reward genetics here in NYC.
Instead of commenting about knowing people using false addresses in an online article, wake up, stand up and report them.
Oof. First of all, I don’t know them personally, I know OF them. Anecdotally. I have heard of this particular case from a mother who knows them.
And second, it’s not even a false address- this is a family renting and living in a second apartment for the sole purpose of the child being allowed the attend that school, while subletting their other, out-of-the-zone apartment until the child moves on from PS 199, at which point they will likely return to their original residence.
As far as I know, it’s not a criminal act to have two apartments. It’s just the manipulative, entitled, greedy, desperate actions of people with too much money.
That was my point in exposing this: people with that much money are all over the place, getting sneaky but still operating within the law. Food for thought.
Someone was just telling me about friends of theirs who did this. This is definitely happening and people with the resources to pull it off are trying to game the system, and it’s kind of sick actually, and unfair to PS 191.
Everyone is focused on getting for themselves what they’e sure they deserve, they aren’t even interested in why the problem exists in the first place. If people weren’t jamming up this zone (moving here so you kid can attend it- not because you wanted an apartment here or because you like the neighborhood) this problem wouldn’t be as bad. If you moved here hoping your kid would get a spot at the school- NEWS FLASH: you’re part of the problem. You deserve whatever you get. Sorry.
The only objective of the DOE is to integrate PS191.
As it should be. Equally important would be to integrate 199
Pretty sure they tried that in the 60’s. Called forced integration. Remember hearing about “bussing” – that’s where that came from. It didn’t work for anyone. Here we are some 50 years later and we’re still discussing diversity.
The data does not back up ‘been there done that’. AG’s comment is critical.
It works when white people stay. When they leave they aren’t participants, and so it’s no longer an integrated school. Funny how that works.
It’s gonna be okay if your kid is friends with different types of people. They’re only going to be more sociable, cooperative, globally-aware and more adaptable for the experience. School is about a lot, not just test scores.
I wonder is PS 191 could be a PS 199 if people were as willing to bitch about the problems it has and demand immediate solutions.
We need more schools. More schools means more taxes. I’m willing to pay them; often many are not.
But of course you have to move on – not because it is fair or what you deserve or anything else, but simply because you have no alternative and you need to find something else for your child and make it the best you can. If the school isn’t as good, there are many opportunities for you to help make it better. But only if you move on and dig in. I don’t say this because I’m not sympathetic, but because I am. The problem isn’t solved by overcrowding the school – there really isn’t an alternative until we as a city bite the bullet and build more schools (which will obviously come too late to help our kids, but maybe we can be more forward looking than our predecessors).
Actually no, we don’t need more schools. We have plenty of seats for all of our public students. What we need is our current schools to be better. And the DOE has proven itself incapable of improving far too many schools. What’s appalling is that they actually tolerate sending thousands of children to dangerous and/or failing schools. That’s child abuse. And yet privileged UWSers are outraged the DOE hasn’t made finding a slot for Suzy Snowflake at 199 their top priority?! Seems like privileged folk used to getting their way are now seeing how this monstrous bureaucracy works for everyone else in the city. So…. sorry if those of us unable to afford this school district don’t share your tears. When you care about the tens of thousands of (primarily minority) students sentenced to schools like 191 even a tiny fraction of how much you care about 199, then let’s talk.
This
Send those 90+ kids to PS 191. The school will turn around in no time and become another PS 452 in a couple of years. PS 199 is full people. End of story. Like or not. Take it or leave it. That has been, is and likely will be the case. Just like the subway is full sometimes even though you paid $2.75 and have the same right as everyone else to get on.
PS 199 is one of the most over-crowded schools in the district and always has been. I suggest doing research and actually visiting the schools before buying property. If a waiting list is 90+ before you apply, there’s a problem. And schools should not have to eliminate programs to accommodate students, especially when its over-crowded. The fact is that many of the co-ops in the area use 199 as a marketing ploy. The school needs to build a new facility to accommodate the population on the UWS, but the last I heard that being discussed as an option was about five years ago and it never happened. It’s time for these parents to realize that unless a trailers go up somewhere (which is the case at other schools) they need to consider other options. Also, don’t buy in the area until you visit the school.
If it’s any consolation (and I know it’s not), PS199’s great reputation was earned under its former principal, Katie Rosen, who retired in August of 2015. The new principal, Louise Xerri, who served as vice-principal under Ms. Rosen, lacks the vision and talent to keep 199 operating under its previous high standards. As Ms. Xerri’s ride on Ms. Rosen’s coattails comes to its inevitable end, I predict her leadership will quickly guide the school off of UWS parents’ “top schools” list.
PS199 is being ruled by a despotic principal now.
I worked there for over 20 years and saw the care that Gary Goldstein, Carol Stock and Katy Rosen took with developing the school. Ms Xerri appears to be there as a very poor replacement. She tyranizes the teachers- and several are retiring or transfering this year- and is not responsive to the needs of children with IEPs. It is very sad to see a once great school decline like this.
After living two blocks away from PS 199 for 52 years I can attest that you are flat out wrong. PS 199 has been one of the top 10 schools in NYC for decades! If anything, the current principal is the least impressive of the bunch over the last 40-50 years. Signed, someone who knows what they are talking about.
Mr. Cole, perhaps you didn’t read my comment carefully. My assertion is that the current principal is indeed unimpressive. Perhaps the reputation of PS199 was built by both Ms. Rosen and her predecessors, but the school’s “blue ribbon” status was attainted under Ms. Rosen.
In my experience so far – and yes, as a parent of a PS 199 student, I have direct experience and do indeed know what I’m talking about – Ms. Xerri is uninspired, underqualified and frankly, unpleasant. I believe she lacks the ability to inspire teachers and students alike, and that leadership will translate sooner than later to a loss of desirability for PS 199.
I could tell you some stories about Ms Xerri. But all you really need to know is that her understanding of how to manage a school like 199 is very limited. She’s essentially “winging it” but has the luxury of talented teachers and a voracious PTA to make up the gaps so it will take time for the school to measurably decline. She is no leader. Literally no one at the school thinks she’s got what it takes. Talk to her. Behind her eyes is a frightened junior educator way out of her depth.
As an incoming K parent, I am very saddened to read this. I am curious, what recourse the parents and teachers have for potentially replacing a school principal?
Dear Laura – We feel your pain and we lived it up through 5th grade at which point we threw up our hands at the entire screwed up DOE and moved – out of state (and not NJ). Yes, cant wait for the nasty comments to fly in response, but when you’re trying to get a decent education for your child in NYC it just gets worse when you approach middle school and high school. If your child does not test into a coveted G&T (don’t get me started on that BS) your options are SIGNIFICANTLY reduced as you get to MS and HS and you end up in a school that is 50% college readiness. (Yes, look at the College Readiness Index on the DOE site and it will scare you to death. Even coveted La Guardia is #362 and 58% college ready on the US News list of HS nationally). Time to cut your losses and RUN as you can’t wait for the DOE to meet your child’s need for a solid education. That’s what we did and our daughter now attends a TOP 50 NATIONAL high school that SHE DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE TESTS TO APPLY TO and it’s FREE (yes, you’ll have ti apply to private MS and HS in NY and most are not nearly as good as a great public school. We almost moved to 199 eleven years ago before kindergarden, but even then it was beginning to get horribly overcrowded and the handwriting was on the wall. The developers were supposed to build a school to accommodate all of the kids moving to the district but that fell through if I recall correctly, or its just taken too long to help anyone. I applaud your efforts and you had to try, but frustrating when you learn that as a parent and taxpayer you have zero rights in NYC when it comes to your child’s education. Wishing you and your family the best, and shame on David Collins who’s commenting here to “move on” when their child is happily ensconsed in 199. Now THAT’S ENTITLEMENT.
Shame on you for commenting that my child is happily ensconsed in 199. He/she/they are not and it would not matter whether that was the case or not. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand, certainly not in terms of finding a solution. Now THAT’S ENTITLEMENT on your part – to talk about people in a demeaning way. You should have learned this lesson a long time ago. Assuming is dangerous thing. Just ask parents at PS 199 zone!
No need to apologize for something that made economic sense and likely made you happier overall. did the same thing and never looked back.
This is my independent take on the situation as my children do not attend school here. PS199 is or is on the brink of overcrowding, which would most likely negatively impact the value it brings and the education it delivers to existing students. We all know huge schools with a massive student body don’t work so adding another classroom probably doesn’t help. Obviously it would help the next batch on the waiting list to the detriment of those kids and those already attending (potentially). That being said, if more people were as passionate as Ms. Shiller and fought/fight for changes in the educational system, more schools would be like PS199 and this wouldn’t be that big of an issue. Unfortunately people either give up, or eventually get a spot and stop fighting, or move. None of those solves the problem which is poor planning, poor operational management, poor excuses for why a failing/slightly violent school is the next best option for families. Were some parents hoodwinked into buying property in the hopes of sending their child to a good school? Probably. Maybe they didn’t think the system was so dysfunctional. At the end of the day people want their children to get a good education and to be safe while getting it. I’m sure we could all agree on that.
Why this would come as a surprise to anyone is beyond me. The over-crowding and long waitlists have been an issue for years now not just at PS 199 but across many other schools. It is foolish to move into a zone and believe that your child will be guaranteed a seat at the corresponding zone school of your choice. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just naive, was lied to or simply ignoring the facts. About a dozen new buildings have gone up along Riverside Drive, a new building just went up a couple of years ago right next to PS 199 on the corner of 70th and WEA. More and more couples with children have moved into the PS 199 zone as well. The two – more buildings and more families with children moving into already existing buildings – has created this issue. The DOE needs to make sure it has other school options available for parents, schools that are also on the Upper West Side and relatively close to PS 199, schools like PS 191, PS 87, PS 452, PS 811, PS 859, PS 9, PS 334, PS 166, PS 333,PS 111, PS 523, …12 options just right there that are 5-20 blocks away from PS 199. Plenty of schools on the Upper West Side already! The DOE needs to take those schools – and others – and utilize them to solve this issue. Sitting here writing emotional letters or living in lala land is not going to help the parents complaining. Adding more kids to an already severly overcrowded and under resourced school is not going to help the children. And, the problem will happen all over again next year and the year after that and the year after that.
But no one wants to be the guinea pig to send their kid to 191, especially not after paying exorbitant prices to live in 199
Not to be rude, but clearly you’re not a parent. Have you been to ALL of these schools to observe conditions (mice, roaches, filth), classroom environment (constant disruptions, constant punishment to an entire class for the disrupters), lack of facilities (our former school is on this list, was considered “good” and did not even have a library), seriously dangerous conditions (one child was poisoned by another in our school, another was mugged in a restroom, constant muggings and beatings outside school), not to mention ……
Sadly all schools are NOT equal no matter how much tax you are paying, and it will take YEARS if not decades for others to catch up. Dare I mention the school in our former catchment – PS 75 which even 10 years ago no one wanted to attend but has slowly been improving with a great principle and better conditions across. How may years did that take.
I am both a parent and zoned for PS 199. Regardless, not sure how that factors into the conversation. The DOE needs to offer other school options to these parents, schools that are also on the Upper West Side and relatively close to PS 199, schools like PS 191, PS 87, PS 452, PS 811, PS 859, PS 9, PS 334, PS 166, PS 333, PS 111, PS 523,…all located 5-20 blocks away from PS 199. Some of those schools are as good if not better than PS 199, and others not so. But cramming more kids into PS 199 is not the answer. Has not been for a while.
I moved to a nice commutable town that has diversity and seats. Yeah, I have to deal with train delays, but not your insanity. No one wants to discuss a glaring problem: millions of undocumented immigrants have many children. The schools are flooded. Even NPR had a story of a Principal of a NYC school disucss this and admit its the problem. Wake up fellow liberals and deal.
And there is that! I suspect the DOE as with many city agencies use census data for projecting the needs of communities and what resources to use where. Many undocumented families are not accurately counted until they show up and enroll in class. Many are not equipped with the language skills needed to understand the work requiring additional money be spent to accommodate these children (or not) and good teachers leave for better opportunities or quit because they don’t want to deal with the nonsense! This leaves schools with overburdened and/or unqualified teachers that will ultimately fail and no parent that has a say will want to send their child there. Also, some of these children are either taught, witness, or deem it acceptable to resolve issues through violence which makes a school unsafe.
Wow! An honest comment. Good for you.
what alternative schools are being offered for the waitlist parents for 199?
The DOE needs to make sure it has other school options available for parents, schools that are also on the Upper West Side and relatively close to PS 199, schools like PS 191, PS 87, PS 452, PS 811, PS 859, PS 9, PS 334, PS 166, PS 333,PS 111, PS 523,…all 5-20 blocks away from PS 199.
I wonder what would happen if all the 199 students had to rotate to 191 every other year. That seems like a fair solution. Which side would parents be on?
We all moved here for different reasons at different times. We all have identical claims to send our kids to 199. (Don’t give me this older sibling B.S.). There is little harm in sending a kid to a different school each year of their classmates stay the same. Thus, the solution of rotating.
My guess is, 100% of those who are “entitled” and already in 199 would be writing to the DOE about adding a new school ASAP. If getting into Kindergarden wasn’t a birthright to getting into 1-5, you can bet that all parents would be upset and on the same side.
Why is it that I don’t feel sorry for this parent? Is it because I live in an area where my zone school is struggling and we were not given the option to go to PS 87, PS 9 or PS 166? Is it because my child qualified for a Citywide G&T spot and has been waitlisted? Is it because we also have been wait listed at by Success and MSC? Is it because we actually have to spend money for private school which we do not have? This parent who moved into the area should have known of the PS 199 space issues before buying their apartment, its been going on for years. Boo hoo. Maybe move into a less expensive area and use savings for private school?
We are not parents right now, but PS 199 is our zoned school as well. I can understand the rage and fear that parents have being two weeks out from school and still not having somewhere to go.
Exactly Amy. This mess will extend beyond the first day of school. Families will be waiting to hear from the DOE well into September.
Parents have somewhere to go – just not PS 199. The DOE needs to make sure it has other school options available for parents, schools that are also on the Upper West Side and relatively close to PS 199, schools like PS 191, PS 87, PS 452, PS 811, PS 859, PS 9, PS 334, PS 166, PS 333,PS 111, PS 523, …12 options just right there that are 5-20 blocks away from PS 199.
I think there is.a lack of understanding about the process of entering K which if you have not lived the nightmare, you cannot even begin to understand it’s draconian nature. If your neighborhood zoned school is not an option either because it’s dangerous, poor performing and otherwise a hell hole that you cannot imagine sending a 5 year old into,OR you’re wait listed as in this case, your. choices are VERY limited. We entered a lottery and our hears sank with each step in the process. Your are NOT going to get into MOST of these schools on this list let alon the coveted ones like 87 or even 9 at this point. Again, I ask – HAVE YOU VISITED THESE OTHER SCHOOLS, SAT IN ON CLASSES, VISITED THE PLAYGORUND?? Our “good” school on this list had constant issues – a kid poisoned by another, a child beaten up in a bathroom, sharing space with a REALLY awful school with kids who were scary, kids getting beaten up routinely outside and around the corner. Yes, it’s NYC, but aren’t 5 year olds “entitled” to a safe place to learn?
Seems like the overcrowding issue on UWS is getting worse every year so just imagine the horror of trying to get this class of K students into a decent middle school in six years. That was the point of exit for many, many families in our 5th grade year. Again wishing Laura all the best and applauding her tenacity in CHALLENGING the system. We tried and failed so many times….
And apologies David for my incorrect assumption. Thanks for the correction on that.
Is is racist and offensive to give us more specific info on these schools youndont want to send your kid too? Whon goes to this school and where do they live? WSR- can you just be honest and stop ignoring the elephant in the rooom? Everyone here knows exactly what I am talking about. Just be honest.
Huh? Not sure who or what this is directed towards but seems misplaced, out of context and out of line with reality.
This debate comes up every year and likely will not be solved to all parties’ satisfaction. The bigger picture – as alluded to above – is that education is not the only expenditure demanding – and worthy of – our tax dollars. Is it more worthy of tax dollars than say, housing the homeless or caring for the elderly members of our community? What about paying the salaries of our first responders or municipal workers? Unfortunately that is not up to the Superintendent or the Department of Education to decide. In addition realtors should be more forthright – and buyers should do their due diligence – about the likelihood of an assured spot in 199. It seems nowadays the only assured excellent NYC education is in G&T and in the elite private schools – the latter of which make many question whether or not it’s worth paying to play.
I do feel bad for this parent. I have young kids and getting them into a good school is one of the most stressful things ever!
But beyond her arguing to cram more kids into PS199, New Yorkers have to realize that the DOE and education in the city is fundamentally broken. It is not fair to the children of this city as a whole that their education is dictated by how rich their parents are or what color their skin is. Its not fair that a school in one neighborhood can be failing to educate its students when their neighboring school 10 blocks away asks the parent community to contribute almost $1000 per kid to pay for the extra teachers and special classes.
All kids deserve access to an excellent education.
NYC residents pay one of the highest income and real estate taxes in the country (perhaps anywhere). We pay some of the highest rents and home prices anywhere. Yet, the dept of ed for NYC is one of the worse around. What gives?!?!?!
You make an excellent point…
For those who don’t know, PS199’s PTA asks parents for a yearly contribution. The “suggested contribution” for 2014-15 was $750 per child.
One of the biggest problems is the previous administrations have allowed for all this residential development to go on without forcing any of these developers to build schools.
There is still alot of building going on all over the UWS…why doesn’t our council woman advocate on our behalf…my child is now in HS but has gone through 9 years of public school…I am heartbroken for these families!!
Helen Rosenthal has done nothing to help the UWS in this regard. She offers no meaningful ideas or solutions and everyone of the people that posted comments on this column has offered better suggestions than Helen Rosenthal could. Maybe one of the people that posted will be motivated to run against our councilwoman in the next election.
I apologize. Helen Rosenthal did contribute a post on this column, she wrote “Boo-Hoo”
Good point! The exact reason I can’t stand politicians. They seem to only want to address issues that have less resistance. Well politics is a blood sport and I’d respect them if they actually took on the harder issues (even if they lose that particular fight). Sadly the people in these positions are more interested in preserving their roles or moving up the political ranks so they are hesitant to go against the people that will help them get there.
Helen is busy focused on banning horse carriages in Central Park, limiting Uber and bike lanes all over the place. She can’t be bothered to deal with real issues.
Helen is milquetoast at best. I regret voting for her but will not make that mistake again. Her website highlights her big accomplishments like pushing for rat proof trash cans and reminds us to call 311 to report ongoing problems. Thanks, so helpful. She supports whatever seems populist then flip flops if things heat up and points her finger at the biggest target. What are her ideas for improving schools? Issues that have plagued our city’s schools for many generations continue into our generation – it must be this current generation of parents fault. Blame parents of young children inheriting this city’s mess?! Helen has struck me as anti family. Sadly, she has a strong base in the aging population.
Actually Helen Rosenthal had quite a lot of support from a group of public school parents.
The only reason Helen Rosenthal won the election was because half of the voters confused her with Linda Rosenthal on the ballot.
That’s because these issues are important to the childless and to the tourists and to the corporate challenge crowd. Everyone know people with kids eventually move to New Jersey.
Ha! Brilliant! Thanks, I needed a good laugh!
I thought Trump was supposed to build a new school as part of the Trump Place developments?
I understand that he is really really rich and that he thinks the UWS is really really great.
We need more community invested people like Laura. God bless her for caring so much! Developers win and the community looses. At least Trump gave our community a pier when he took the Hudson views. Though a school also would have been nice. Recent developers (Aire, XX building etc) what did they do to improve the neighborhood? The fabric of this community weakens if families flee or you fill new buildings with short timers.
I don’t think Laura cares about the community – she cares about getting her hold in an already overcrowded school. An additional 12 seats opened up (crowding K classes from 25 to 27 children… When K should really be capped at 20 or 21 kids). The wait listed families who got those seats moved on and left the “team” Laura is tearfully describing. Had Laura’s hold been one of the lucky beneficiaries of one of the 12 seats, would she have written that outraged letter? You will allow me to have my doubts. This is not about caring for the community- it’s about wanting something for your child (and I can’t blame anyone for that) but let’s call a cat a cat.
And I am not sure why “child” appears as “hold”…
UpperUWSder: I’d call a mensch a mensch but no, not a cat. If number of years living in this city factored into a child’s admission – her kids would likely be in the top 5. I have been following this cohort of parents as well as the previous 5 years or so. Trepidation best describes the average emotional state of a parent of preschool aged children here (not naivety as some suggest). Those wait listed – devastation, anxiety. The collective tears and anxiety I have seen from our local, entrenched moms is astounding. Why do we who choose to stay accept this abuse from the city? Most accept it quietly – fearful that attaching their name to anything will result in retaliation somehow. Laura is using her gift of writing to call out in alarm. For her own children yes, but not likely in the short term. The community on our playgrounds, in our houses of worship, and our residential buildings. Why do any of us serve on local committees, boards, PTAs – it’s voluntary and often a headache – conviction that you can make something broken a little better.
We need more schools on the UWS-urgently, agreed!! But let’s not pretend the DOE would maintain a K class of 21 as a rule. 25 is about as good as it gets even in comically priced Manhattan private school settings.
Actually, no more than 21 is ideal for a class of 5 y.o. For most children it is their first year in a “real” school setting. 25 or 27 is just too much for the teacher to give them the attention they need and identify any issue. At PS 199, it’s now going to be 27 kids in K, going up to over 30 in first grade and again in 2nd grade as one class is eliminated. We are talking about 5 / 6/ 7 y.o. children. I would not want my child to go to school in such a crowded environment. It’s a disservice to young earners and to educators.
Laura,
Get out of the city. Do whatever it takes. Common sense has nothing to do with what goes on with the BOE. It never has. It’s a nightmare that will haunt you for the rest of your kids educational lives unless you win every lottery and have extraordinarily resilient kids. I raised my kids here. If I had to do it again I’d move to New Zealand. I’m not saying they won’t eventually flourish but you’ll be horrified at the level you’re confronted with every step of the way.
While I feel for the author, I can’t feel to much sympathy. If a main reason she moved to the area was because of the school, then she really needed to do research about the issue, which if she did she would have learned that automatic admission was not a given. She also should not have given her kid false hopes that this would be her new school. Our friends are all aware that a good public school education is not guaranteed in the city, which is partially why they have all moved out of the city (that and space/cost).
Location, location, location! NYC is all about real estate. Stage a sit in at the BOE like they used to do back in the day. Or just accept that no does indeed mean no. And on another note: one of my things to look for on Sundays here on the UWS is our newer residents wearing t-shirts announcing where they went for higher education. On Saturdays however, you run wearing a t-shirt announcing which corporate challenge you took part in.
oooh. Sean. Nice Burn. It’s like …like you’re Louis CK (but funnier!) – I definitely think you deserve that satisfied feeling you felt when posting that! Go you!
basically, we’re saying “I paid to go to a school that the DOE cares about. I know that there are other schools that are not getting what they need, but I didn’t care because I thought I would be someplace where things were ok. Now that I know I might have to be with the people who didn’t get what they need, I’m outraged, because I belong with the people who get what they need!”
Maybe if we made sure all the schools got what they need, people wouldn’t mind going 10 blocks further downtown.
Yes!!! God! – I wish all New Yorkers could be slapped in the face with this realization and get the DOE off their *sses to fix all of the schools in this city!
THIS. A thousand times, this.
What’s not really being discussed is 191 is in the Amsterdam projects, and the school has a lot of black kids going there. I went to 191 in 1965 and 199 in 1968-9. Race is a big factor and of course parents aren’t going to send their precious children to the project school. Funny thing is, going to 191 would actually teach the kids more about life than they would ever learn sheltered at 199…
191 is not just a school for the projects. There are many many luxury buildings in the 191 zone that the avg middle class family can’t afford. DNA info did an article this summer showing the avg price for an apt in the 191 is twice the amount of one in the 199 zone. Why aren’t the families in the 191 zone sending their children to 191.
Sadly the real losers on this are the children at 191. The test scores are abysmal and the doe neglects these kids. The doe should have been providing more teachers to 191 to assist these children and help them compete with the rest of the kids in district 3 so they can go to good middle schools and high schools .
The doe should be ashamed of themselves for not providing help to schools that have these low scores. How can anyone blame parents who live outside the 191 zone for not wanting to send their children to a school that the doe cares so little about.
It’s up to the doe to help these children.
The name of PS 191 is the Museum Magnet school. The arts programs in the school are amazing. They are the ones that are featured on Lincoln Center Education’s website and have been invited to events at CMOM and featured on social media. The staff is committed and hard working. The projects that the kids do are outstanding. Check out their website for yourself. The dangerous school label is erroneous. The higher ups who have come to inspect the school are still wondering how the school ended up there. They will be off of the list by the end of the year. A truly persistently dangerous school could not do that in a year. Why does the school have lower test scores? Because segregation is alive and well in NYC. The current upper west side is no longer as diverse as it used to be. It has tragically moved away from the days where people were happy going to PS 191 from K-2 and then moving over to PS 199 for 3-6. This coincided with the slow steady rise of the upper middle class entering into the neighborhood, not the natives or people raised on the UWS. Studies prove that children from poverty do not do well in school, no matter what the trendy ads say. I would like someone to find me legitimate studies that show that segregation works. I am calling out the pretend liberals/democrats who think integration and diversity is GREAT, but not for their kids!
The overcrowding problem at 199 can be easily solved. Next year half the students at 199 go to 191 and half the students at 191 go to 199, Both schools would be intergraded and 191 would be considered a good school with high reading scores.
So now that it’s September – what happened to all the kids on the waitlist? Did they go to 199? Or elsewhere? Anybody have real facts on this?
Since there are no more protest, you can only assume that they were able to get into the next best schools on the UWS (either PS 87, ps 452, or Ps 9) – the schools that are not near the projects, have a wealthy population, and very little diversity. All is happy for them.