PS 199 on West 70th street has the longest waiting list in the city for Kindergarten spots, and parents with kids on that list have been waiting all summer to find out what will happen for the upcoming school year. On Tuesday, the city Department of Education said it would find room for 12 students at the front of the 94-student wait list, while the remaining students will be placed at other schools in the district, according to DNAinfo. The Kindergarten classes will all get two adults in the room, paid for by the city — a teacher and a paraprofessional.
But those wait listed students won’t be placed at PS 191, the school on West 61st street where district leaders had originally expected the wait listed students to go. That’s because PS 191 was designated last week as a “persistently dangerous” school by the state Department of Education, one of only two schools in Manhattan to receive that designation. There were 97 disruptive incidents in the 2013-2014 year, including 21 involving weapons. Kids in schools that are rated as dangerous can transfer to other nearby schools.
Local education officials had hoped that more of the wait listed students would attend PS 191, in part to help desegregate the district. PS 191 students whose students are predominantly minorities, while PS 199 is majority white. District officials, including parent group (CEC3) president Joe Fiordaliso, say the state designated PS 191 as dangerous in error and they plan to challenge the designation.
Fiordaliso and PS 199 parent leaders have been resisting letting more wait listed students into PS 199, because they say the school is already overcrowded. “They’re jamming even more kids into a school that’s severely overcrowded,” said Fiordaliso of the DOE’s decision to add the 12 seats.
We covered a contentious meeting about this issue a couple of months ago.
Salon Riz at 82nd And Columbus ave
So if they are not going to PS 191, where are they going?
This is ALL COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. The city has to intervene in a more productive way than shipping off almost 100 kids (minus 12) to other schools.
AND are we still sure that every one of these kids already accepted are actually in the zone or are they “living” in a rented studio or with their “Great Aunt Lydia”? Has this been broached yet?
Maybe the 100 or so kids just have to go to private school or try out for the lottery schools just like all the other kids who can’t get in their choice school. Or maybe if all the 100 or so kids go to PS 191, it wouldn’t be a bad school anymore as concerned/involved parents will come in, more money will enter the school, bringing in more security, more teachers, bringing up the test scores?
>Maybe the 100 or so kids just have to go to private school or try out for the lottery schools just like all the other kids who can’t get in their choice school. Or maybe if all the 100 or so kids go to PS 191, it wouldn’t be a bad school anymore as concerned/involved parents will come in, more money will enter the school, bringing in more security, more teachers, bringing up the test scores?
More incredulous advice from folks most likely with no skin in the game. Private school enrollment have gone downhill since ’08. Hello ? Do you even live in the city ? Private school tuition for one kid runs anywhere from $35000 to $45000 and that doesn’t include the summer month camps and activities. What are parents to do with 2 kids ? Work two jobs each ?
As for your PS 191 comment, are you serious or completely zombie-living ?
They are zoned. You haven’t been paying attention to the number of families who have been moved into the zone. I live in 199’s zone and the buildings around have gone from 3 kids each to dozens.
As to shipping them off to other schools: 1/2 a mile is not shipping. In most other places that is close. They can still walk to school.
Mpipik – I have been paying attention. In fact, I have child who is about to enter into this mess in about 1 year. I’m not a newbie here and I see large amounts of kids in the area, but I also know for a fact that enough policing isn’t done to ensure that there are no kids from outside the zone coming in.
Your comment about kids “being able to walk to school” is incorrect. Apparently YOU haven’t been paying attention. There is no guarantee the kids that are waitlisted will go anywhere nearby. Moreover are you SO “city cool” that you would feel comfortable having your five year old walk alone to school outside of your immediate area? Or, maybe you don’t have a 5 year old – or any child – who will be affected by this. And in that case, maybe you should hold back from doling out advice to parents.
Take a read if you need some more education:
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150820/upper-west-side/doe-kept-info-on-dangerous-uws-school-secret-officials-say
Nonsense. What 5 year old kid walks alone to any school?
This. Lots of pearl-clutching moms on here today. Kind of hilarious that while horrifying real-world/real problems exist they are wringing their hands over a 10 block walk to school. Don’t Americans need more exercise anyway? lol
Another story of affluent white parents not wanting to send their kids to school with other kids of color
See, I TOLD you that I was the smart one.
Other Mark – do you have evidence that racism is the motivation?
Cool of you to assume everyone’s racist. It’s actually about parents wanting to send their kids to the best schools, the ones with strong teachers and good test results, which means their kids have a good chance of going on to a good middle school. That’s what parents of any race are thinking about.
It seems there is an obvious need for more schools? If one school is oversubscribed, and the other is overcrowded than the solution is to open another school, duh! Now I understand it is not THAT easy but never the less what is needed. Has any of these school officials thought about using the now abandoned catholic school buildings as options? I believe Holy Name on 96th and Amsterdam shut down their program a year or so ago. It is a school building. All that is needed is teachers (which I’m positive the city has, students, which according to this article are in abundance, and a nice power wash to rid the area of pigeon waste.
All you have to do is go to a CEC meeting with DOE pencil pushers to see how nearly impossible it is to get the DOE to start a new school. Their official position is that there are enough seats in the district for all students. Any new school is a miracle.
Oh I’m sure the DOEs official position is that there are enough places for all children and they very well may be right from a mathematical standpoint. And perhaps from a financial viewpoint it doesn’t make sense to build more schools. But education is not something that should be viewed at as a “seat” or “spot”. Perhaps that is the simpler thing for the DOE to do rather than admit failure or take responsibility for schools that have some of the problems addressed in this comments section.
No,Mark. This is not about affluent parents not wanted to send their kids to a predominantly minority school. This is about parents wanting to send their kids to a safe and educationally robust and challenging school, which 199 happens to be, and 191 is not. Many minority 191 parents would do anything to be able to have their kids at 199.
As soon as your (and even a couple other privileged) kids start at 191, you’d be amazed at how fast things begin to change there. Curious how that happens….
PS 191 was put on the persistently dangerous list because they had 97 violent incidents 21 with a weapon. Big loss for CEC 3. 12 new kids offered seats at PS 199. Big loss For CEC 3. CEC 3 members delude themselves into thinking they have power, but they are irrelevant.
They say PS 191 is safe and the data collection was wrong. They’re probably right. There were probably 297 violent incidents, 210 with weapons.
Good luck rezoning
PS199’s problem is ever-growing as more and more high-rise buildings are built into the zone. It is outrageous that the city continues to allow this sort of massive, new construction without a concern for the impact to facilities and services that are meant to support the families in them and the surrounding areas.
For years, parents “in the zone” squawk loudly to get their kids off the waiting list and into the school, but you can’t fit 20 eggs into a carton meant for a dozen. The school doesn’t have the luxury of expanding the same way the neighborhood the already diminished zone has. To accommodate that influx, classes for enrichment programs such as music and art are lost so that there is rooms for more kids. But, once in the school, guess what the first thing those same parents squawk about the school not having? You guessed it, the programs that were removed to make room for their kids. And those programs, coupled with focused administration and an active PTA, are a sample of the sort of things that make PS199 the school parents want to send their kids to. It’s a nasty circle, one that the City has never put appropriate effort into fixing in a way that works as a suitable, long-term solution that works to build excellence in education.
And yes, despite considerable efforts at policing the problem, children outside of the zone still manage to finagle their way in.
Newer residents may not realize that PS 199 was built for Lincoln Towers and that there has been an incredible amount of residential development over the past decade or so.
Even in the late 1990s, and when the Center School was still in the building, PS 199 still had some space for out of catchment students.
Fast forward to new development of Riverside South plus building on 70th and West End. More people, more families – subway and schools more crowded.
This already happened in Tribeca and Battery Park area – non-stop residential development and subsequently lack of school space.
The Bloomberg Administration largely ignored the issue of development without infrastructure, particularly schools.
It will not be easy to catch up.
21 weapons violations at an elementary school?? wow.
It was at the middle school.
I think 191 goes up to 8th grade.
That (going up to 8th grade) does not ease my mind. Perhaps it wasn’t meant to do so.
Holy Name is a school building, just not a NYC Public School building. The property is owned by the Archdiocese of NY. City officials just can’t decide to open a school on private property.
I am sure no one remembers when PS 199 was a horrible school. The parents turned it around and it became a coveted school. This happened in the ’90’s. It is possible to make an impact on a school by parent involvement. Good luck!
Yes, clearly they don’t know that or the history of the schools on the UWS. Probably because most of these aggrieved new NYers feel tremendously self-entitled to expect the same types of suburban schools as they attended.
> Yes, clearly they don’t know that or the history of the schools on the UWS. Probably because most of these aggrieved new NYers feel tremendously self-entitled to expect the same types of suburban schools as they attended.
senyc, how does your comment or any comment regarding PS199’s history (worse to first) help forward the discussion ? NYC was a basketcase yet YOUR ARE HERE judging from your handle!! What does that say about YOU ? This is an attack on you but the idiocy that is so common in today’s society, especially NYC .. the complete lack of common sense!
As a parent myself, I can see why this would be extremely frustrating and feel unfair. But, neither the real estate agent (at least I hope not) nor the city promised or guaranteed that space would be available at PS199, or at any other school for that matter. My understanding is that PS199 is not alone in over-crowding or waitlisting applicants (PS87, PS290, PS6…). Parents need to understand, accept, as fair or unfair as it may seem to them, that no one can or is guaranteeing their kids a spot at the closest school to their residence. NYC does guarantee a spot a one of its public schools, just may not be the one of your choice or the one closest to your residence. Adding more children to PS199 is not the answer – it will neither help those already at the school or those entering the school. It will create an unhealthy, unsafe and unproductive environment. Two wrongs do not one right make. If anything, PS199 needs to cut back even more. The whole reason why PS199 came to be the school that it is (was) is because of the great education it offered and that can not happen if the school is overcrowded and resources are taken away from the school. The families on the waitlist need to “move on” and find the best option they can before those options also close on them. PS452 is a great schoo, so is PS87 and PS9. You also have PS811 and there is also Success Academy.
Thank you for demonstrating your cut and paste skills to all of us
The school is obviously over-crowded. Hard to argue that given it has seven kindergarten classes. An insane number. The whole reason PS199 came to be the great school that it is (was) is because of the great education it offered and that can not happen if the school is overcrowded and resources are taken away from the school like cluster rooms. I can’t see how any logical/reasonable person would argue that the primary and sole focus should be to get all those 90+ families a spot, even if that means getting rid of the cluster rooms, further overcrowding the school (if that is possible) and greatly diminishing the educational experience of every child. There are other schools in District 3. It is up to the DOE now to decided which of those other schools in District 3 these families can attend. I don’t know which schools exactly those would be, but I do know they likely will not be PS199.
Sorry to say but these parents were naive to think that they were guaranteed a spot or that this was their God-given right to attend a certain school. PS199 has had over-crowding issues FOR YEARS and to think that by renting or buying an apartment in the school zone that you were guaranteed a spot is just naive. Unfortunate, but naive nonetheless.
For all the comments of parents “expecting” their kids to go to PS199 because they live in the zone, you are right and wrong. Yes, parents shouldn’t “assume” their kids have a spot as if it’s a birth right. However, given the high cost of living around PS199 and in NYC in general, rent + city taxes, etc, you can’t help but sympathize with these parents that for all this cost of living they are paying for yet they still can’t get their kids into the local school. And to expect these parents to fork the bill for private school is also delusional b/c if they could, most likely they have already and not have to deal with this sort of insanity.
The DOE needs to offer other school options to these parents, schools that are also on the Upper West Side and relatively close to PS 199, schools like PS 191, PS 87, PS 452, PS 811, PS 859, PS 9, PS 334, PS 166, PS 333, PS 111, PS 523,…all located 5-20 blocks away from PS 199. Some of those schools are as good if not better than PS 199, and others not so. But cramming more kids into PS 199 is not the answer. By the way, private schools are not only expensive at around $40,000 a year (often more), but are also highly selective, at least the ones worth while attending. Getting into a school like Collegiate, Brearley or Trinity (forget about Hunter) is very, very difficult and having the means to pay is by no means the only factor driving the admissions process (unless we are talking tens of millions).
The problem is that any of the schools on this list that are even halfway decent are also over populated and you can’t get a spot there either if you aren’t zoned. Been there, done that. We live in the district and applied to over 10 public schools and didn’t get a spot. That is why charter schools are thriving.
Right, so go to charter schools! Go to private schools! Move to Westchester! Ask the DOE to add more schools! The last thing you want to be doing is trying to over-run an already over-crowded school with more children – so that both the children already at the school plus those incoming students both suffer. Sure does not seem “fair” that children can’t attend the school they are zoned for or closest to or is their first choice. But, that has been the reality for MANY students for MANY years. NYC, the mayor, the DOE, they need to add more schools. require developers to build more schools as they build new buildings. Jamming 35 kids into a class with two teachers is not the answer. Taking away rooms for electives such as art and music and computer class is not the answer. Adding a seventh or eight Kindergarten class is not the answer. Overwhelming the school staff and facilities is not the answer. The answer is BOTH building new schools and making more schools into better schools. Until that is done parents will have to go to charter schools!, private schools or move.