By Carol Tannenhauser
Parents at the first scheduled public hearing about the city’s school rezoning plan on Monday night said the plan won’t actually address overcrowding in the district — it will just shift it to new schools.
Much of the discussion on Monday focused not on PS 191, PS 452, or PS 199, as in the past, but on PS 87 and the potential overcrowding it may experience if CEC3 approves the DOE’s latest rezoning proposal.
The concern stems from the fact that PS 452, now on 77th street, is potentially being re-sited to the current PS 191 building on 61st street, and many of its families may opt not to travel to the new site but instead send their children to PS 87 on 78th Street between Amsterdam and Columbus.
Sarah Turchin, director of planning for the DOE, presented an executive summary of the proposal, restating its intentions “to alleviate overcrowding, to promote diversity, and to insure that all of our schools are successful.” Turchin emphasized that PS 87 will not be allowed to fall below its current “instructional footprint,” i.e., lose space for art, science, etc., or to go above the “contractual maximum of 32 students per class.”
“CEC3 member Noah Gotbaum asked if the DOE “had looked at what the utilization would be if 80% opted to attend PS 87?” Turchin responded, “if 80% of newly zoned students opt to transfer to PS 87, the utilization would be a max of 110%.”
Then, it was the public’s turn.
Jackie Dolson-Shewchuk, co-president of PS 87’s PTA, spoke for the approximately 30 people who stood up to show they were from the school. In addition to presenting a list of requests/demands, she said, “We don’t really trust the numbers. We feel they’re going to be larger.”
“My issue is purely safety,” said another PS 87 mother. “We can’t play the shell game with overcrowding. ‘Hey, 199 had it. Now, it’s 87’s turn.’ When you put a school at 110% capacity, you put all those lives in danger. It’s not a game. You need to keep the schools under capacity to keep everyone safe. That should be everyone’s number one priority.”
“I live across the street from PS 87,” a woman said, “and I watch the fire drills. It takes time to get all those kids out of the building. I fear for their safety. And I think we’re setting the school up for failure. There was a reason 452 was put there five or six years ago. If you remove it, we’re going to be back where we were in 2010.”
“PS 452 was put there in 2009-2010 to hopefully alleviate the problems we are going to have if you take it away,” Samantha Berman, added. “We don’t want 452 taken away.”
“Why is no one talking about moving Anderson?” another woman asked. “Why is a gifted-and-talented school taking up such essential and valuable real estate when those students will really travel anywhere?”
“Fifty percent of Anderson students are already bused in,” said a woman. “It is a city-wide school, not a neighborhood school.”
“There is a big difference between not being heard and not getting what you want,” another woman said. “The CEC is trying to take care of the whole district and some individuals aren’t going to get what they want, because it’s better for the whole. That’s something we all have to learn in this country. That said, I think the CEC was focusing on the southern part of the district, figuring north of 72nd street would take care of itself. It’s not. PS 87 will not be able to manage in the district as proposed. It seems shocking to me that there will be no other elementary school in the upper 70s up to 84th street. We need 452 or some other elementary school, otherwise I’m very concerned about the future of 87.”
Other concerns also came up at the hearing.
“There are three children per year that come out of Lincoln Towers, and those are the kids being zoned out of 199,” a Lincoln Towers parent said. “It won’t help the diversity problem. It won’t help the population problem. What it will do is anger and disrupt an entire community that’s been instrumental in building that school.”
Another Lincoln Towers woman accused Councilmember Helen Rosenthal (who stood in the back), of settling a vendetta by dividing Lincoln Towers: “People who worked on her campaign told us that when Lincoln Towers did not support her enough she got angry and…” Committee Chair Person Kim Watkins cut her off.
A woman who lives across the street from PS 166 said she is being zoned out of the school across the street from where she lives: “We see the school from out our window, and I told my son every day, ‘that’s the school you’re going to,’ got him all excited. Now you’re saying he can’t go to the school across the street from us? That’s ridiculous.”
A father added “I also live across the street from PS 166. I never imagined I’d be zoned out of the school, living so close. I basically assumed the people in charge of this were smart and would be doing reasonable things. I think this is unreasonable, and a lot of people on my block have no idea this is going to happen. I hope you’ll reconsider, because a lot of people are going to be surprised that they’re not going to the school they’re looking at.”
But the PTA co-president from PS 166 said: “I just want to ask parents to try to look at the bigger picture, which is sometimes almost impossible, especially right now. I want to recognize the benefits of the plan, to ask everyone to trust in our teachers and principals, many of whom spoke in favor of the current DOE plan last week. I’d also ask that we treat each other as neighbors, whatever unfolds next week.”
A woman who was zoned out of PS 9 had a similar concern. “Even though I live across the street. That is nonsensical.”
Another father said “If this feels like a death row appeal in Texas, that’s because it’s exactly what it is. The die has been cast. So, if the bureaucracy won’t listen to us, and our City Council representative won’t listen to us, maybe it’s time for the governor or a judge to decide whether or not this body has the right to vote for us. We can appreciate a diverse forest, we just don’t want to burn down all the trees to get there.”
Another hearing is scheduled for next Monday. And then the CEC is set to vote on Tuesday night. A simple majority of the 11-member CEC is all that is required to pass the proposal.
Monday, Nov 21 @ 6:30PM – Public Comment/Hearing
PS76 Auditorium
220 West 121st St
Tuesday, Nov 22 @ 6:30 PM – CEC3 Calendar Mtg and Zoning Vote
Joan of Arc Auditorium
154 West 93rd St
These poor suckers are wasting their time at these so-called public hearings. The CEC doesn’t listen to or care about parents. This proposal is getting a rubber stamp next week.
Hoping the plan changes is like hoping Hillary will be the next president. The horse has left the barn.
I agree that no one cares about or listens to parents. In the latest rezoning proposal you can see a “Zone Demographic Changes” chart. The percentage of students at PS 87 eligible for free/reduced price lunch or HRA benefits is currently 5 percent. In the proposed plan it is 0-5 percent. And we are told that diversity is a big reason for these changes. Who know what the real reasons are behind the changes being forced on everyone.
I guess arrogant politicians haven’t learned the consequences of ignoring their constituents (brexit, trump). The people will have their turn to be heard in 2017 when Helen rosenthal is up for reelection.
I think that quote from Turchin, “if 80% of PS 452 students transfer to the new site and the others opt for PS 87, its capacity would be at a maximum of 110%.” is backwards…
If 80% of 452 students zoned for 87 choose to attend PS87…
Where are our other resident upper west side politicians — City Comptroller Scott Stringer and Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer? (We all know where Coucilmember Helen Rosenthal stands–she couldn’t wait to support this rezoning.) Why are Scott and Gale so silent on this issue??? This overcrowding is happening in their UWS backyard. Can’t they step in and help save our children from the overcrowding that is likely to occur? We should be calling their offices asking for any help they can provide.
It is the same old school politics. Scott Stringer was the one who originally appointed Joe Fiordaliso to the CEC. Gale Brewer called Joe “a very good leader” on twitter last year.
This is the same Joe that during last year process said that although diversity is important, the burning issue is the overcrowding of PS 199 and therefore the rezoning should focus on that. The same Joe that claimed that the majority of the 452 parents supports the move. The same Joe that issued a recommendation letter to the CEC without disusing it openly it. The same Joe that lobbied the plan without addressing the concerns of the community.
A very good leader indeed.
The same Joe that was so concerned about proximity when his own child was going to school – a school that could be seen from his bedroom window, literally across the street. As a parent, he had stress and anxiety about the process, and had trouble answering questions to his child when playing in the playground if she’d go to school there. See: https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150602/upper-west-side/podcast-advocating-for-schools-after-overcrowding-hits-home
But now, at a different stage in school, proximity does not seem to be the same large driving factor that it should be in the decision process. Several parents living next to PS9, PS199, or PS166, but zoned away emphasized this on Monday for their own families.
This flaw in the plan should be corrected.
They live on the Upper West Side, but they are all liberal left-leaning Democrats who are voted in by the whole borough/city. Stringer and Brewer can’t easily take sides in this because they will have their feet held to the fire everywhere.
And they abuse their power.
Oh you poor soul – your optimism is so endearing. For those of us fighting against the hypocrisy for months on end, we learned a long time ago that isn’t going to heppen and also that no one else will help anyone with their cause. I’m so sorry your school will be overcrowded by people like me who will move to your zone in a few weeks because I’m getting zoned to 191 and no one cares about the havoc it’s wreaked on the affected families (which throughout the whole proposal is NOT one cec, cb7 or city council member).
Imagine the lengths they went to in order to design the whole upper west side schooling system so as not to hurt themselves.
It’s sad that the ps87 parents are just waking up to this now…they thought it wasn’t their problem until now. It would have been much more effective if they stood up with the 452 parents 9 months ago. The maps showed the disaster in the making months ago. Now, good luck to everyone zoned for 87. There is going to be overcrowding for years to come.
Yup and just wait…because all the people who got moved to 191 (or were already in) are moving to the 87 zone in droves. That’s everyone’s destination school now.
It’s going to be worse than ever. PS 199 and PS 452 won’t be as highly sought after anymore. Anyone moving to the UWS for public K admission will be targeting the PS 87 zone.
PS 199 will quickly rebound, but PS 452 is going to crumble. Foolish to target a new school that was still working to establish community, track record + test scores. 452 would actually be better off starting from scratch as the bitter parents who are being forced to commute will drag down the morale for many years.
It takes more than some bitter parents to drag a school down.
Yes, the 87 waitlist will feed the new 452 and the new 191. And parents will be forced to bring their kids all the way down through all the traffic into the only neighborhood the city was willing to build a new school in.
That’s the DOE’s plan.
Thanks, NYC. You treat your taxpayers really well.
Yep. I know of at least 2 families who will be rezoned out of PS199 who are headed to the PS87 zone. Please remember to love thy neighbor!
The cynic in me thinks the DOE/CEC wants a waitlist at 87, so they are forced to go to 452/191 if the WL doesn’t clear. If you know you’re zoned for 191/452 from the start, you may opt for privates/Success/move at the start, now you won’t necessarily get that option.
Why don’t they get rid of the dual immersion Spanish program at 87? That would free up gen ed seats.
Besides that the program is good and popular, it would not free up many seats as the kids would go to PS87 anyhow, just not learn Spanish.
It will get approved. At this point, the DOE and CEC are so fixated on their diversity vision that they’ve become delusional. Apparently it won’t matter how poor the test scores are or how far the school is – parents in District 3 will forget about it all and instead enroll their child in whatever school they are assigned to because they prioritize their role in the bigger picture, this diversity vision, above all else.
Does anyone find it interesting that a gerrymandered line for the 199 zone was drawn around the head of the CB7’s building on 70th street?
Very suspicious indeed.
Maybe they should send all blocks south of 72nd to 191?
I’m curious how Roberta pulled this off? I guess Helen used to be head of CB7 and Gale Brewer appointed Roberta as head of CB7. Cronyism amongst the 3 of them at it’s best. If moving to 191 is so great why doesn’t Roberta advocate for it for her building.
Yes, it’s Roberta Semer and somehow her building remains in the 199 zone even though the 191 zone line extends west along 70th street. The line zig zags around her building. Sounds to me like she pulled some serious connections – everyone knows this entire zoning is 100% rigged.
Can someone please explain this whole issue with the schools and such to me??
I mean, I have read all the articles and maybe a thousand or so messages posted here but I just don’t get it. Let’s see if we can finally get a thorough explaination (with sources and citations, IN BLUE BOOK FORMART please!)
I think if you keep writing the same thing over and over again it will get some attention, at least it will make you feel better. I mean, i’m not going to read them but maybe someone might. Buena suerte.
Move Anderson to 191 since have the students are bused in. Reve fifth grade from 87 so seats can open up. Add 5 through 8 grades to O’Shea since it was designed to be a middle school. New development requires middle school space and this location would be perfect. 191 had housed pre-k to 8th grade. Perfect place for Anderson since it is K through 8. You can even add many Pre-k classes at 191 as well.
Move Anderson out of the District…Or into the PS 241 building!!
We need more seats in the southern portion of the District…
Make the Oshea Campus PS452 pre-K to 8th.
A UWS Zoned school (zoned middle school also)
Anderson can be in any borough. It is City Wide G&T
I have a fifth grader at 452 so I am not impacted by these changes, but I have to speak up and say that it is CRAZY that Anderson was given protected status in this. Not a single person on the CEC had the courage to speak up and suggest moving that school. Probably because they are all hoping that their kid can someday go to Anderson.
@Another 452 parent THIS IS NOT TRUE. Both a former and current CEC member brought up a potential Anderson move. I wish the WSR would cease to allow comments on these articles, because all it does is provide a forum for people to spread misinformation.
“I wish the WSR would cease to allow comments on these articles, because all it does is provide a forum for people to spread misinformation.”
i expected we’d get here sooner or later. Anyone remember open discussion? What happened?
UWSMom – Please enlighten us. Which members of the CEC have discussed an Anderson move and when did they do so…
Anderson stats:
4% African American
81% White or Asian
10% Low income
3% Special Ed
Yet the Anderson parent on the CEC had the nerve to say he voted for moving 452 due to a “moral obligation” to integrate our school. Hey…how about you integrate the school that YOUR CHILDREN ATTEND?? Don’t like that idea so much, do you?
Exactly. Is he fighting for Anderson to commit to any real diversity initiatives? Let’s all pressure them to diversify Anderson too!
https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2016/10/20/12-more-new-york-city-schools-will-experiment-with-admissions-rules-to-boost-diversity/
Actually, the reason the cec is not speaking up about Anderson is because one of the members (who seems to be bullying others — including yelling at one that outwardly disagrees with the current proposal) has a child or children at Anderson. I actually think there may be another CEC member who also has a child or children at Anderson as well.
Combine this with the inordinate number of DOE officials and politicians who have children at Anderson, and you have indefinite protected status for this school.
Move Anderson for what? So that families who live in the 90s, 100s, 110s and up can send their children to a General Education program in the 70s? I would venture to guess that 10% of PS87, 452, and 199 students live outside the catchment zone. This year, 452 took in out-of-zone kindergarteners. Does 452 really need to be located on 77th Street, if it is taking in children from the 90s and 100s? What is the actual demand for seats in the 70s if “valuable” seats are being filled by out-of-zone students? My friend’s kids attend 87 and several years ago she told me she was surprised by how many of her children’s classmates lived outside the catchment zone. I’ve heard the same from a 199 parent. The southern portion of District 3 may be crowded, but what makes it crowded is out-of-zone families from other parts of District 3, who either never lived in the catchment zone or moved out of it once their children were enrolled, who don’t like their actual zoned school. Leave Anderson out of it.
“Move Anderson for what?” asks UWSMom.
The answer is Anderson is not a zoned school, yet it consumes space badly needed in the zone, and badly needed in that particular location. Specifically, it consumes space in the overcrowded O’Shea building. Because it need not be in the zone, and it does not dedicate itself to students in the zone, it should be moved to where there is more space.
That’s the no-brainer move that our unscrupulous leaders refuse to even discuss.
Now do you understand?
This year, 452 took in more out of zoned kids because the in zone families knew the DOE was moving the school. PS87 will be above 110% blue book capacity after absorbing 452 families, 199 is already above that and will again be next year. The Oshea campus needs to provide seats to the zone…Both elementary and middle school. MOVE Anderson!!!
Stand back and look at the big picture – there’s no reason for Anderson citywide to be located in one of the most severely crowded parts of any district in Manhattan. It’s only remaining there due to the political clout of the white, wealthy Anderson parents who want their school to stay in a chi-chi neighborhood. Gotta give Anderson families their fro-yo.
The 452 catchment zone is within a block from the school. Well within walking distance. But you know that.
And you also well know that Anderson is MUCH wealthier than 452, with a PTA fundraising machine raking in almost million dollars a year. Happy to post links to both the school PTA’s 990 forms if you need proof.
As opposed to who? The wealthy, white 452 parents, whose children attend a “zoned” school that is not even located within their catchment zone, who want their school to stay in a chi-chi neighborhood.
My understanding is that the reason 452 had to take out of zone students last year is because so many 452 parents are leaving the zone and city altogether.
Yes — you are correct that too many public school children live outside of their catchment zone. It is amazing to me that the DOE is upending families before trying to find a solution for this. But surely there are far more children outside of the “zone” for Anderson, a city-wide school, than those cheating for their local schools.
Why are you so against moving Anderson. Let me guess: You’re an Anderson parent.
It’s the logical thing to do – move Anderson, but we were told too many important political people’s kids go to the school and so they won’t touch it. That came straight from Dan Katz on the CEC. By the way his kids go there so maybe he is referring to himself.
He was the one who was talking about how “we’re still practicing [segregation] to this day in the southernmost part of District 3.”
Has he advocated to have Anderson join the diversity initiative that other schools (including BSI, the citywide in Brooklyn) have committed to – giving priority for 40% of its seats to low income students???
https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-new-york-city-schools-join-diversity-admissions-program-1477010116
I don’t believe Anderson has ever considered any kind of diversity initiative in admissions. I’d be thrilled if you can show some proof that is the case.
I don’t think Anderson itself has anything to do with who gets admitted. Kids take a test. The doe draws names of anyone with in the 99th percentile.
Similarly, need to move G&T out of 166.
There is no reason why a district wide program needs to take up half the school seats, forcing kids who are literally across the street to be rezoned to another school because 166 gen ed is “full.” Put the g&t at 84 if they will be having so much room, so that everyone being rezoned from 9 and 166 to 84 can attend their 1st or 2nd closest school rather than the 3rd closest school. Insanity!
166 G&T has a very powerful force on its side: zoning committee head Kim Watkins, whose child attends the program. She doesn’t want to anger her fellow parents by getting rid of the G&T, so she fought to get the 166 zone cut down instead.